Help explain non binary

[Educationneeded]

Hi, thread was inspired by the other about coming out as GC. I have name changed as I’m not ready to be outed so just incase.

I am GC, although only have expressed my views to close friends and family. My younger sister is due to go up to high school in September and six months ago came out as non binary. We all believe this decision was heavily influenced by TikTok and the wokeness on there.

My parents don’t really understand. My Dad just rolls his eyes but my Mum wants to learn however doesn’t know much on the subject and has asked me to talk to my sister. I have no idea how to even approach the topic with her. Anyone have any guidance? Anything I can tell or show my Mum? I’ve read a lot on trans and women’s right but not much on non binary and don’t really know where to start with this minefield. I guess I’d like to educate myself too.

@Tal45

First there was punk, then there was goth, then there was emo and now there is non binary. It's what you are if you're a confused teen and don't really know/understand who you are but want to be part of something (or an older person desperately trying to fit in/be on trend). Gender is a social construct, that means it's made up by people/society so anything with the word gender in it is also made up. Boys liking pink doesn't need a label.

Many of those youth cultures provided teenagers, especially girls, with a way to opt out of the pressures of a very sexualising mainstream culture while remaining 'cool'. Similarly with The Smiths: looking back, you feel a lot of their appeal was the way it gave teenagers permission to be ok with being bookish, awkward, gay or celibate.

But none of these youth cults endorsed and entrenched conservative, regressive sexist stereotypes in the way 'non-binary'/gender ideology does, and the most lasting thing you might do to yourself physically back then was get tattoos, a few piercings or - at the extreme end - vampire fang implants.

Ah, I now see that she is autistic. I think this adds another level of complexity as she is likely to have obsessive tendencies AND is likely to be feeling increasing pressure from social interactions with real life peers as well as the fear of puberty etc.

A 11 year old is NOT vulnerable to their parents questioning something as serious as what the OP’s sister is saying. She’s 11 Ffs not 21.

I would be doing some serious review of what she is watching online and finding some other balanced things for her to watch.

Good luck op.

This thread should be in LGBT children, so I've asked Mumsnet to move it.

It's funny how autism interacts with the gender identity stuff… I've come across disproportionately large numbers of self-identifying gender-diverse people in autistic groups and disproportionately large numbers of autistic people in LGBTQetc. groups, but then there are other autistic people like me, for whom autistic thinking styles lead to great difficulty with accepting the social necessity of lying about whether people are men or women, and with accepting being lied to.

@Deliriumoftheendless

This child is no more vulnerable than any other child- and probably significantly less than many.

OP are you able to chat with her? She sounds like she’s embarking on a period of trying to work out who she is/what her place in the world is. Like most of us do when we’re young. She may find it helpful to discuss it all with you, as a semi outsider.

"This child is no more vulnerable than any other child- and probably significantly less than many. "

That's a very reckless claim. All the evidence points to the opposite:

www.forbes.com/sites/dawnstaceyennis/2020/07/15/largest-survey-of-transgender-and-nonbinary-youth-says-more-than-half-seriously-considered-suicide/?sh=2449aa0e3404

She really struggles to make and maintain friendships and struggles with bullying at school too which I think is why she has fallen into this. The toilets are just many on a long list of things I’m worried about. She has recently adapted the terminology ‘cervix havers’ and ‘chest feeding’ and I don’t even know where to begin with that? I don’t know WTF is on TikTok as that is all she uses and obviously has no social media. My Mum is just saying she thinks it’s a phase but it’s startling. I want to have a conversation with my Mum about everything too as she has admitted these are issues she knows nothing about but again... it’s a minefield.

She hasn’t started her periods yet so I’m unsure if that will help or encourage the situation.

Why is an 11 year old even interested in discussing breastfeeding and cervixes? She needs some age-appropriate interests.

@FrankensteinIsTheMonster

Why is an 11 year old even interested in discussing breastfeeding and cervixes? She needs some age-appropriate interests.

A lot of this is viral on TikTok I’ve looked myself

I don’t know WTF is on TikTok as that is all she uses and obviously has no social media.

There are some very concerning things on TikTok. Parents/carers really need to be on top of what their children are viewing.

Oh the poor thing, such a hard time

You love her, she's great as she is, she doesn't need to change to be perfect to you

Tiktok is for 13+ isn't it?
Get her off tiktok and into the real world. Meeting with others into the same stuff as her, Pokémon would be better.
You need to give your mum and dad a briefing. And chat to your sister. Sounds like she needs a big sister guiding her, not randoms she's watching on social media.

She has recently adapted the terminology ‘cervix havers’ and ‘chest feeding’ and I don’t even know where to begin with that?

current relevant thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4220265-I-just-came-out-as-GC-at-work-to-the-big-boss-and-I-feel-a-bit-sick

Definitely have a plan to discuss the usage of TikTok however I’m not sure how well that will go down as I know all of his friends have it. My parents monitor her account which I think was made with my Mums email and she isn’t allowed to post anything.

At the end of the day she’s only 11, I’m not sure how much she even understands what she’s saying so I’m not even sure how much to discuss with her. Do I tell her I’m GC and my reasons why? Do I say I’m worried for women’s future? I don’t want to alienate her away from me.

Conversations will need to be age-appropriate taking into account the specific needs of the child.
Its important not to over complicate or overwhelm them with too much.
Transgender Trend have useful resources:
www.transgendertrend.com/resources-for-parents/

She really struggles to make and maintain friendships and struggles with bullying at school too which I think is why she has fallen into this.

That's such a shame. I wonder if you could offer help to address these issues? The following site's for parents but the advice is helpful and may be of use for you:

www.ahaparenting.com/parenting-tools/safety/helping-bullied-child

I just wouldn't worry too much about the gender thing at the moment. Bit odd where it's coming from - my eldest is 11 and wouldn't have a clue. He's not allowed any social media at all. But I expect she'll grow out of it, given support and someone to talk to. So my suggestion would be to be the person she can talk to - practise active listening (can be a useful and difficult skill to master). Spend time with her, encourage her to talk without judgement.

I would definitely look at transgender trend for advice.

She's 11 and still only at Primary school?!!! I think sorting out social media exposure is a priority to be honest.

Your sister is a girl on the verge of becoming a young woman. No matter what label she would like to apply, she will be a woman for the rest of her life.

My sister says she isn’t old enough to decide what her gender is so she’s non-binary. The curse of using the word "gender" when the appropriate and factual word "sex" should be used strikes again - not by you Educationneeded but from other sources.

Your sister doesn't need to choose or have a gender. Her sex is female and she will soon be a woman, and that may be a frightening proposition for a number of reasons (one of which is how women are treated because of our sexed bodies) as well as the misinformation spewed by TikTok and other social media.

Gender is nothing but a set of stereotypes that your sister need not buy into or adopt no matter any external pressures. If she has concerns about becoming a woman that's understandable given the mixed messages sent, and discussing those concerns may be helpful for her.

Good luck OP. I found this article really useful when I was first getting to grips woth all this stuff

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

Strongly recommend that aeon article. ^^

It's the consequence of the insistence that female sex is somehow "matched" with feminine gender expression, and male sex "matches" masculinity. There is very little provision made under this framework for a woman to be less than 100% feminine without this changing their gender.
So as nearly everyone on the planet would encompass some mix of femininity and masculinity, we are all somewhat "non binary". This shouldn't preclude knowing what sex we are.

Thanks for all the help. Some very interesting reads here and I’ve definitely educated myself. Taking it all on board for when I go for a chat.

Regarding the TikTok comments, of course it is something I am going to raise with my parents however as I’ve stated I’m her sister not her Mother, so have no control over what she watches or how much. I do think she’s being exposed to far too much online but I’m not sure how well taking her off TikTok will work as all of her classmates are on it. Her autism means she gets very obsessed and fixated on things and TikTok and the trends circulating are the latest. But that isn’t my battle to fight.

I’ve only been asked to come talk to her as I’m much closer in age than my parents who are nearing 50 so less likely to be met with the ‘you’re too old to understand’ comments. Hence why I posted in this forum and not LGBT kids or parenting as I don’t need parenting advice, I was asking advice regarding the non binary subject as I would like to educate myself and my parents who to their own admittance don’t understand. I find the feminist forum very helpful for this kind of stuff and I’ve had that help now so thank you very much!

Buying into gender ideology makes people suicidal according to research, so I think it is imperative that you do make the effort to approach her for sake of her mental health.

As you said she is also autistic so she is obviously already going through a lot at such a young age and will already feel like an outsider.
She is probably buying into the idea of gender identities to try and make sense of her differences in life.

Do whatever you can to reassure her she is perfect the way she is, and buying into this ideology will make life much harder, less safe, and more complicated for her. Not easier.

@GNCQ

Buying into gender ideology makes people suicidal according to research, so I think it is imperative that you do make the effort to approach her for sake of her mental health.

As you said she is also autistic so she is obviously already going through a lot at such a young age and will already feel like an outsider.
She is probably buying into the idea of gender identities to try and make sense of her differences in life.

Do whatever you can to reassure her she is perfect the way she is, and buying into this ideology will make life much harder, less safe, and more complicated for her. Not easier.

"Buying into gender ideology makes people suicidal according to research"

Citation please.

@Ikeameatballs

I would definitely look at transgender trend for advice.

You mean the transphobic organisation run by a sculptor who isn't trans, doesn't have any trans children and has no qualifications or experience relative to the healthcare of trans children?

The ones who thought it was a good idea for kids to put transphobic stickers on their school books?

I'd give them a miss if I were you.