Help explain non binary

[Educationneeded]

Hi, thread was inspired by the other about coming out as GC. I have name changed as I’m not ready to be outed so just incase.

I am GC, although only have expressed my views to close friends and family. My younger sister is due to go up to high school in September and six months ago came out as non binary. We all believe this decision was heavily influenced by TikTok and the wokeness on there.

My parents don’t really understand. My Dad just rolls his eyes but my Mum wants to learn however doesn’t know much on the subject and has asked me to talk to my sister. I have no idea how to even approach the topic with her. Anyone have any guidance? Anything I can tell or show my Mum? I’ve read a lot on trans and women’s right but not much on non binary and don’t really know where to start with this minefield. I guess I’d like to educate myself too.

@Shizuku

This thread should be in LGBT children, so I've asked Mumsnet to move it.

The OP has chosen to post it here. If they've decided they want it moved it's for them to make that request, not for you to take it upon yourself to override it.

Sex is one of those real world things that is complicated. It's not complicated in the least.

Actually, non-binary trans people are a thing.
How much navel-gazing does one have to do to consider oneself both non-binary and trans? If a transman or transwoman claims to be nonbinary does that mean they no longer identify with the sex they say they have transitioned to?

Hilarious to hear you talk about strict binaries, and then complain about binaries that don't even exist and that you have completely made up. Human reproduction is binary and isn't going to change.

Any claim to be nonbinary is based on feelings, without acknowledgement of the reality of one's physical body, with the sex of that body a fact since conception. Saying "I don't feel like a woman or a man" doesn't change the fact that the person remains physically a woman or a man.

Shizuku The abuses described above are done mainly to cis girls, but also trans boys and some non-binary children.

Similarly, everyday sexism is an abuse suffered by most cis women and passing trans women, but not by passing trans men.

Let's break this down
Sexism is experienced predominantly by females

A transwoman won't be passed over for a promotion because she's pregnant. Transwomen don't experience the same "everyday sexism" that women do because 90% of the time a transwoman is visibly male so will have her own individual issues that are unrelated to having female reproductivity or female body.

A transman will experience similar sexism due to ability to get pregnant eg vulnerable to rape etc. This is a shared experience of females no matter how they identify.
I'm sure virtually all transmen experienced everyday sexism before they chose to opt out of womanhood and go on a medicalisation path.

@ChewtonRoad

Sex is one of those real world things that is complicated. It's not complicated in the least.

Actually, non-binary trans people are a thing.
How much navel-gazing does one have to do to consider oneself both non-binary and trans? If a transman or transwoman claims to be nonbinary does that mean they no longer identify with the sex they say they have transitioned to?

Hilarious to hear you talk about strict binaries, and then complain about binaries that don't even exist and that you have completely made up. Human reproduction is binary and isn't going to change.

Any claim to be nonbinary is based on feelings, without acknowledgement of the reality of one's physical body, with the sex of that body a fact since conception. Saying "I don't feel like a woman or a man" doesn't change the fact that the person remains physically a woman or a man.

" If a transman or transwoman claims to be nonbinary does that mean they no longer identify with the sex they say they have transitioned to?"

Trans just means that you gender identity doesn't match the sex you were assigned at birth. If you're non-binary, it generally just means your gender identity falls somewhere between male and female.

Do you think you ought to do a teensy bit of research before contributing to debates on trans issues? Just a thought.

Gender ideology myth number three
Because some people's gender identity falls outside of rigid sex stereotypes, that means people can change sex.

Leads to in practice: male people in women only spaces.

anal rape is a thing unfortunately. Some trans women have been both anally and vaginally raped.

Women are all too aware of anal rape
.
Look. Anal rape is awful no one will ever deny that but no transwoman will ever fall pregnant and have to deal with the consequences of falling pregnant from rape.

Raping a female is used as a weapon in war for goodness sake to render the female pregnant and
become ostracized from her husband and family in parts of the world today.

The unimaginable consequences some women have to go through when contemplating a dangerous and stigmatized abortion or keep an unwanted baby... "Is a thing unfortunately"

Trans just means that you gender identity doesn't match the sex you were assigned at birth. If you're non-binary, it generally just means your gender identity falls somewhere between male and female.

What does this mean? What is the relationship between sex and gender identity and how do they match or not match? How would I know whether my gender identity matches my sex? How can I discover what my gender identity is?

A transwoman won't be passed over for a promotion because she's pregnant."

Nor will an infertile woman or a menopausal woman.

Gender Ideology myth number 12
Because some women can't fall pregnant that means people with a penis (who identify as a woman) experience the same sort of discrimination.

A transwoman won't be passed over for a promotion because she's pregnant."

Nor will an infertile woman or a menopausal woman.

Rubbish.
1 Unless the infertile woman has an infertile sticker on her forehead, she will be assumed just like all other females of potentially becoming pregnant.
2 As for menopausal women, they get hit by the second caring whammy, elderly relatives. I know if many women whose careers have been blighted by this. So denied promotion because you might get pregnant then have to tailor work around caring for elderly relatives.

@Educationneeded

Hi. Not sure if anyone is interested but I managed to have a chat with her.

She says she is not a girl and does not wish to be called one. She wants to buzz all of her hair off so she’s like our brother. I told her she can be whoever she wants to be and we will always love her, but she will always be a female and there’s nothing wrong with that. She plays a sport and is now saying she wants to move over to the boys team as she isn’t a girl (but if she’s non binary doesn’t that mean she isn’t a boy either?). I have to admit I’m even more confused now than before as I thought she was saying she didn’t wish to identify as either but now it appears she just wants to do things boys do.

It sounds to me as if she is reacting against what she perceives is the female role. Frankly, at 11, who wouldn't these days? This is incredibly common for girls approaching puberty. My advice would be to reassure her you love her, support her image change. Call her by her chosen name. Don't give too much attention to the changes either. I suspect things will resolve in time.

It is worth noting however, that by stating the category "non-binary", the implication is that everyone else is one of the two binaries. It isn't a tenable place from which to argue really. But many 11 year olds aren't yet mature enough to understand that.

This is partly why older women are making arguments that communications to children/young people need to be more concerned with safeguarding.

I'm glad she has such a supportive, kind, and loving sibling and parents. You might look at a film called "Trans Kids - its time to talk" featuring Stella O'Malley who talks in a balanced way about her own feelings at this age. Not disimilar perhaps. Good luck.

Aren't the vast majority of people 'non binary'? If non binary means being in possession of a range of talents, skills, attributes, characteristics and preferences?

Who conforms to every gendered expectation - except maybe those who are forced into certain roles through culture?

I post on two forums: this one - which is predominantly female, and is widely considered to be a parenting website ( even though much wider in range than that as we all know); and one which, apart from me, is almost entirely populated by men ( & a large percentage of gay men for some reason). It is an architecture and urbanism forum.

As an example.

Aren't the vast majority of people 'non binary'?

Everyone who doesn't actively embrace stereotypes from a 1950s sitcom during every waking hour is non-binary. But then we'd have to invent more sub-categories to make people feel special and interesting.

@Justhadathought

Aren't the vast majority of people 'non binary'? If non binary means being in possession of a range of talents, skills, attributes, characteristics and preferences?

Who conforms to every gendered expectation - except maybe those who are forced into certain roles through culture?

I post on two forums: this one - which is predominantly female, and is widely considered to be a parenting website ( even though much wider in range than that as we all know); and one which, apart from me, is almost entirely populated by men ( & a large percentage of gay men for some reason). It is an architecture and urbanism forum.

As an example.

I agree with you that few people will conform to all gender stereotypes, so yes, I imagine that most people would probably fit that description.

However, I don't want to be called non-binary, and I don't want to use the pronouns they/them. I would like instead to be acknowledged as a woman, using she/her pronouns, who does not buy into the gender stereotypes and does not wish to be defined by them.

It is not for other people to define how I should do "being a woman". I will do it my own way.

@GNCQ

Gender ideology myth number three Because some people's gender identity falls outside of rigid sex stereotypes, that means people can change sex.

Leads to in practice: male people in women only spaces.

Wow - there really are still people out there who don't know that gender identity and gender stereotypes are 2 different things. Fascinating.

@334bu

A transwoman won't be passed over for a promotion because she's pregnant."

Nor will an infertile woman or a menopausal woman.

Rubbish.
1 Unless the infertile woman has an infertile sticker on her forehead, she will be assumed just like all other females of potentially becoming pregnant.
2 As for menopausal women, they get hit by the second caring whammy, elderly relatives. I know if many women whose careers have been blighted by this. So denied promotion because you might get pregnant then have to tailor work around caring for elderly relatives.

"1 Unless the infertile woman has an infertile sticker on her forehead, she will be assumed just like all other females of potentially becoming pregnant."

So, she's in the same position as a passing trans woman.

"2 As for menopausal women, they get hit by the second caring whammy, elderly relatives. I know if many women whose careers have been blighted by this. So denied promotion because you might get pregnant then have to tailor work around caring for elderly relatives."

Indeed, I am currently caring for an extremely elderly parent (101), and have been for the last 2 years. I have moved in with them, and they need someone here 24/7. Keeping my job going is a challenge.

@Justhadathought

Aren't the vast majority of people 'non binary'? If non binary means being in possession of a range of talents, skills, attributes, characteristics and preferences?

Who conforms to every gendered expectation - except maybe those who are forced into certain roles through culture?

I post on two forums: this one - which is predominantly female, and is widely considered to be a parenting website ( even though much wider in range than that as we all know); and one which, apart from me, is almost entirely populated by men ( & a large percentage of gay men for some reason). It is an architecture and urbanism forum.

As an example.

Absolutely. My heterosexual male farmer friend reads Vogue and World of Interiors . I am female but good at a lot of traditionally “male” practical things. My DH does almost all of the cooking. Personality and tastes vary. Everyone is “non binary” and it is therefore nonsensical.

@Shizuku, please can you explain what "gender identity" is, if not just gender stereotypes, because I am genuinely really struggling to understand this.

Are you able to explain exactly what you mean by "gender identity" in terms that I can actually understand, without reducing it to the abstract notion of "feeling like a woman"/"feeling like a man", or a preference for particular pronouns? This is a genuine question and I do want to understand, but I have not yet been able to find any meaning in the term "gender identity" beyond the stereotypes. Please do explain.

" I would like instead to be acknowledged as a woman, using she/her pronouns, who does not buy into the gender stereotypes and does not wish to be defined by them."

That's not what non binary means. It's not about what gender stereotypes you are into - some non-binary people are overtly masculine, some are overtly feminine, some are androgynous and there's every variation in between.

It's therefore not about behaviour, it's about identity. So just as you identify as a woman regardless of you behaviour, so a non binary person identifies as non binary regardless of their behaviour.

@Shizuku

" I would like instead to be acknowledged as a woman, using she/her pronouns, who does not buy into the gender stereotypes and does not wish to be defined by them."

That's not what non binary means. It's not about what gender stereotypes you are into - some non-binary people are overtly masculine, some are overtly feminine, some are androgynous and there's every variation in between.

It's therefore not about behaviour, it's about identity. So just as you identify as a woman regardless of you behaviour, so a non binary person identifies as non binary regardless of their behaviour.

But as per my previous post, please explain what identifying as a woman actually means?

If your idea of what makes you a man or a woman is based neither on biology nor on cultural gender roles as externally expressed, then what is it based on? What is it that a person is looking at in other people of the gender they align with and saying "that's like me"? It has to be something that can be perceived from the outside, otherwise they wouldn't know if it's like them or not like them.

"But as per my previous post, please explain what identifying as a woman actually means?"

You said you would be more comfortable being acknowledged as a woman rather than non-binary. So you identify as a woman.