Help explain non binary

[Educationneeded]

Hi, thread was inspired by the other about coming out as GC. I have name changed as I’m not ready to be outed so just incase.

I am GC, although only have expressed my views to close friends and family. My younger sister is due to go up to high school in September and six months ago came out as non binary. We all believe this decision was heavily influenced by TikTok and the wokeness on there.

My parents don’t really understand. My Dad just rolls his eyes but my Mum wants to learn however doesn’t know much on the subject and has asked me to talk to my sister. I have no idea how to even approach the topic with her. Anyone have any guidance? Anything I can tell or show my Mum? I’ve read a lot on trans and women’s right but not much on non binary and don’t really know where to start with this minefield. I guess I’d like to educate myself too.

Obvs, but not vulnerable to family rejection, unemployability, bullying, and homelessness just for not being trans. Nor do you have people on Mumsnet advising your family members to find ways to stop you being yourself, and referring them to hate groups for advice.

Aside from the ridicilous claims of hate groups or accusations of mumsnet advising not medicalise against puberty, it would be good if you could stop telling women they have it so good and are never allowed to fight injustice against their sex. It is infuriating that you keep coming on fwr and tell women they cannot talk about their experiences or discrimination because of their sex. Women have experienced all of the above as well, for being female. Fight for better acceptance of transpeople but not by denying other groups their experience. This is your problem, anything feminst is seen as anti trans by you.

The privilege people have through not being trans, eh?

Female people benefit from FGM, sex-selective abortion, rape, forced pregnancy / birth, lack of access to contraception and sanitary protection, earn less than men, bear the brunt of child and elder care, are subject to violence and murder daily just for being women... Is that the kind of you mean. Shizuku?

Obvs, but not vulnerable to family rejection, unemployability, bullying, and homelessness just for not being trans.

Well no, but all those things can certainly happen because you got pregnant or have physical issues related to your female body, obvs.

Obvs, but not vulnerable to family rejection, unemployability, bullying, and homelessness just for not being trans.

Oh dear. What about the family rejection for being born female. There are many of us here who have experienced 'unemployability' being born female. I am sure that you have probably never been asked if you had plans to be pregnant in job interview after job interview. And actually be terminated at work because you are pregnant. And if that is not hard enough, after taking the role of caring for that baby, as a female attempting to reenter employment, you get asked yet again if you are going to have more children. Then, when you reach a certain age, you face discrimination for being a female over 50.

You are so right Shizuku. No female EVER experiences unemployability and bullying.

The number of women being bullied not just in the workforce, but everywhere. At home, online.

And homelessness? Can you provide evidence that trans people are more likely to be homeless than women? Including women fleeing DV situations.

Nor do you have people on Mumsnet advising your family members to find ways to stop you being yourself, and referring them to hate groups for advice.

The privilege people have through not being trans, eh?

Yeah...... women are so privileged. Your posts continue to highlight your bias and points to a lack of knowledge about the many shared experiences of being born a female.

Female infanticide at birth, as happens frequently in several parts of the world, is a heck of a family rejection. So is a family selling their daughter to sex traffickers or marrying them to an old man before they reach adolescence.

Quite Eresh.

I think that some posters tend to forget that forced marriage, trafficked girls and FGM is something that is a problem even here in the UK. Talk about having privilege... being able to ignore the plights of these women and girls fits that description quite well.

I am sure that you have probably never been asked if you had plans to be pregnant in job interview after job interview. And actually be terminated at work because you are pregnant

No, I've never.

They're not supposed to ask any more, so some employers make up their own minds on whether it's likely.
We've had employers on MN admit as such.

@GNCQ

As for longing for the 1970s.... really?

Yeah... Is it not so hard to grasp that gender non conforming girls were left alone apart from being labelled "tomboys".

They were not put on puberty blockers, given breast binders, given testosterone etc. They were not labelled "trans". They were labelled "tomboys". Because the idea of gender non conformity was not a medical issue back then.

So, as far as wellbeing for gender non conforming girls is concerned, yes the 70's was more progressive.

Agree with this to some extent @GNCQ - also true in the 60s - Enid Blytons resourceful George was a role model for a lot of adventurous girls.

Hi. Not sure if anyone is interested but I managed to have a chat with her.

She says she is not a girl and does not wish to be called one. She wants to buzz all of her hair off so she’s like our brother. I told her she can be whoever she wants to be and we will always love her, but she will always be a female and there’s nothing wrong with that. She plays a sport and is now saying she wants to move over to the boys team as she isn’t a girl (but if she’s non binary doesn’t that mean she isn’t a boy either?). I have to admit I’m even more confused now than before as I thought she was saying she didn’t wish to identify as either but now it appears she just wants to do things boys do.

It's so fucked up that she thinks she has to stop being a girl to do whatever she wants with her hair. How have we given this impression to the younger generation?

Has she said why she would prefer to do the sport with the boys?

@Educationneeded

Hi. Not sure if anyone is interested but I managed to have a chat with her.

She says she is not a girl and does not wish to be called one. She wants to buzz all of her hair off so she’s like our brother. I told her she can be whoever she wants to be and we will always love her, but she will always be a female and there’s nothing wrong with that. She plays a sport and is now saying she wants to move over to the boys team as she isn’t a girl (but if she’s non binary doesn’t that mean she isn’t a boy either?). I have to admit I’m even more confused now than before as I thought she was saying she didn’t wish to identify as either but now it appears she just wants to do things boys do.

It's good you were able to chat.

I hope you explained to her that in sports, being female bodied playing against male bodies might seem fine right now aged 11, but as soon as these boys hit puberty which is basically any day now, she'll be putting herself in an extremely unsafe situation, with high risk of injury, and she basically won't ever win or even qualify for any team in secondary school if she chooses the boys team.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Female infanticide at birth, as happens frequently in several parts of the world, is a heck of a family rejection. So is a family selling their daughter to sex traffickers or marrying them to an old man before they reach adolescence.

I don't think you've understood how privilege works. Having one privilege doesn't mean you have all privileges. These awful things are done to girls (and trans boys and non binary children) but not because they aren't trans.

@Helleofabore

Obvs, but not vulnerable to family rejection, unemployability, bullying, and homelessness just for not being trans.

Oh dear. What about the family rejection for being born female. There are many of us here who have experienced 'unemployability' being born female. I am sure that you have probably never been asked if you had plans to be pregnant in job interview after job interview. And actually be terminated at work because you are pregnant. And if that is not hard enough, after taking the role of caring for that baby, as a female attempting to reenter employment, you get asked yet again if you are going to have more children. Then, when you reach a certain age, you face discrimination for being a female over 50.

You are so right Shizuku. No female EVER experiences unemployability and bullying.

The number of women being bullied not just in the workforce, but everywhere. At home, online.

And homelessness? Can you provide evidence that trans people are more likely to be homeless than women? Including women fleeing DV situations.

Nor do you have people on Mumsnet advising your family members to find ways to stop you being yourself, and referring them to hate groups for advice.

The privilege people have through not being trans, eh?

Yeah...... women are so privileged. Your posts continue to highlight your bias and points to a lack of knowledge about the many shared experiences of being born a female.

"What about the family rejection for being born female."

That's different to being rejected for not being trans. Obvs.

That sounds very difficult Educationneeded
It sounds as if there are some issues that your parents really need to get to grips with. One being her online access (and I get that it's hard but she' 11 and if they leave it until she's 13 / 14 it will be impossible.
What you said about her lack of friends is also a worry - it's not surprising she turns to the internet is she has no support from friends in her real life. It also sounds as if she's been bullied in school and they've done nothing to tackle this?
How open are your parents to taking advice? I ask this as it sounds as if she may benefit from a range of positive actions in response to this?

I don't think you've understood how privilege works. Having one privilege doesn't mean you have all privileges. These awful things are done to girls (and trans boys and non binary children) but not because they aren't trans.

Yes, These things are done to girls because they are female. So female people need to organise politically on the basis of their sex class. Have you grasped that yet?

Have you grasped that yet?
I doubt that @shizuku will be back on this thread or on any of the other threads where it is clear that the whole argument just doesn't work. Here they admit that women and trans women have very different experiences and needs. I expect they will pop up somewhere else to start the same tired argument from the top sooner or later!

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I don't think you've understood how privilege works. Having one privilege doesn't mean you have all privileges. These awful things are done to girls (and trans boys and non binary children) but not because they aren't trans.

Yes, These things are done to girls because they are female. So female people need to organise politically on the basis of their sex class. Have you grasped that yet?

So let's break this down.

The abuses described above are done mainly to cis girls, but also trans boys and some non-binary children.

Similarly, everyday sexism is an abuse suffered by most cis women and passing trans women, but not by passing trans men.

Prejudice against gender non-conformity is suffered by non-passing trans women, but also passing trans women who are gender non-conforming and cis women who are gender non-conforming, and also many non-binary people.

People, both trans and cis, and of any sex can organise against such abuses, but only some of those people were at risk of those abuses.

Welcome to intersectional feminism.

@lonel

Have you grasped that yet? I doubt that *@shizuku* will be back on this thread or on any of the other threads where it is clear that the whole argument just doesn't work. Here they admit that women and trans women have very different experiences and needs. I expect they will pop up somewhere else to start the same tired argument from the top sooner or later!

"Here they admit that women and trans women have very different experiences and needs."

It's rather more complex than that. Some trans women have some of the same experiences and needs as some cis women and also some different experiences and needs to some cis women.

Your problem is that you're binary thinker, as most GC people are - hence "there's only male and female!" It's not your fault - this is how conservative and reactionary minds work - they attempt to resolve everything into a simple binary, like when George Bush said "You're either with us, or against us". In fact, the world is all grey areas.

In fact, the world is all grey areas.
Trans people are not a different sex you know. Trans ideology is also very much based on a gender binary. GC feminists are the ones reacting AGAINST this very conservative way of thinking. You've got it the wrong way round @shizuku - try being a little less conservative and a little more open-minded!

@lonel

In fact, the world is all grey areas. Trans people are not a different sex you know. Trans ideology is also very much based on a gender binary. GC feminists are the ones reacting AGAINST this very conservative way of thinking. You've got it the wrong way round *@shizuku* - try being a little less conservative and a little more open-minded!

"Trans people are not a different sex you know"

Sex is one of those real world things that is complicated.

"Trans ideology is also very much based on a gender binary."

Actually, non-binary trans people are a thing. Hilarious to hear you talk about strict binaries, and then complain about binaries that don't even exist and that you have completely made up.

"You've got it the wrong way round @shizuku - try being a little less conservative and a little more open-minded!"

Open to the idea that sex and gender are not simple binaries?

Me: "sex is complicated"

You: "Sex is a strict binary"

Me: "Trans people include non binary people and express gender as a continuum.

You: "Trans people are a strict binary."

Also you: "Try being more open minded."

When are these other sexes going to be given names? That might make things easier to explain/understand.

"Gender identity" is clearly some kind of multidimensional mosaic of some kind, given the range of descriptions and non-descriptions people who believe in it give.

Sex is binary in humans and all other mammals. Sometimes it is complex to determine an individual's sex. That doesn't mean that the binary doesn't exist.

Regarding gender being perceived as binary, if it is really a multidimensional mosaic, why do we often only see the idea of "trans", "cis" and "non-binary" used to describe people's gender identity? If someone is trans, what are they moving from and to, if not a binary? Why the description of "non-binary" if there isn't a binary to begin with?

@Deliriumoftheendless

When are these other sexes going to be given names? That might make things easier to explain/understand.

And what would be the function of these additional sexes?

@shizuku
What I said :
Trans ideology is also very much based on a gender binary.

What you said I said:
Trans people are a strict binary.

So not the same thing at all. It is not acceptable to "quote" someone and invent the quotation by the way. I don't do it with you so please don't try and mislead in this way. Your reasoning is convoluted enough without you inventing quotes.

What I said: Trans people are not a different sex you know.

What you said: Sex is one of those real world things that is complicated.

So are you claiming that trans people are not male or female or not? Because it really is not that complicated.