Help explain non binary

[Educationneeded]

Hi, thread was inspired by the other about coming out as GC. I have name changed as I’m not ready to be outed so just incase.

I am GC, although only have expressed my views to close friends and family. My younger sister is due to go up to high school in September and six months ago came out as non binary. We all believe this decision was heavily influenced by TikTok and the wokeness on there.

My parents don’t really understand. My Dad just rolls his eyes but my Mum wants to learn however doesn’t know much on the subject and has asked me to talk to my sister. I have no idea how to even approach the topic with her. Anyone have any guidance? Anything I can tell or show my Mum? I’ve read a lot on trans and women’s right but not much on non binary and don’t really know where to start with this minefield. I guess I’d like to educate myself too.

Non binary is very simple - it essentially just means that their gender identity falls somewhere between male and female
So that's everybody then. I think it's important that she understands that she does not need to conform to gender norms (which many of us find oppressive but can be particularly scary going into adolescence) but for many reasons, not least safety, she needs to know that there is no non-binary option when it comes to sex. And keep her away from Tik-tok!

I would just tell her you're non binary too. After all, unless you wear make up, pearls and heels literally 24/7 you probably are according to TRAs' definitions.

Someone on Twitter claimed that they were non-binary and that meant they were not a woman (even though they said they were having a female). Apparently they were just cased in a "woman's flesh suit."

I would just concentrate on retaining your sister's trust, and hopefully be in a position to discourage them from making any medical changes. Give them a chance to grow out of the whole thing.

@lonel

Non binary is very simple - it essentially just means that their gender identity falls somewhere between male and female So that's everybody then. I think it's important that she understands that she does not need to conform to gender norms (which many of us find oppressive but can be particularly scary going into adolescence) but for many reasons, not least safety, she needs to know that there is no non-binary option when it comes to sex. And keep her away from Tik-tok!

Gender identity and gender norms are 2 different things. That's why some trans girls are tomboys.

Shizuku - debatable but what does that have to do with this? You still can't change sex and telling a young girl she can would be putting her at risk.

"Buying into gender ideology makes people suicidal according to research"

Citation please

Shizuku are you saying you are unfamiliar with the latest research that you yourself posted yesterday at 21:52, that seems to show those who believe they have a gender are at higher risk of self harm/suicide ideation etc.

Why is an ideology based on lies, myths and manipulation still being promoted when it obviously causes such harm and distress to those taken in by it?

The most vulnerable people such as autistic girls and those who have a CSA history are being sold a lie (namely that becoming trans is a cure-all to your underlying problems).

It's no wonder that they then become suicidal as result.

"Tomboy" is a sexist description of a girl that doesn't behave in ways that are considered feminine. No girl is a tomboy, they are girls with their own personality.

It's utterly ridiculous.

Girls in the 70's (80's/90's) were called "tomboys" because sexist people couldn't accept girls to be happy in "boys" attire doing thing reserved for "boys" even though the girls themselves were perfectly happy and knew full well they were female and happy with that.

.... Has now become-
Sexist people say that if a girl is dressing/playing like a "boy" she should breastbind/chop off her tits and change her name to a boys name, stick her on testosterone with permanent changes including infertility and higher risk of cancer.

How progressive.

How I long for the 70's.

Hey OP, I posted about my experience of this on the autism and GC thread that popped up again recently. I was your sister in some ways! Although I was not calling myself non binary or had even heard the term until I was 17. For me, being non-binary was based off my belief that I was agender because I believed gender was a social construct, just groups of stereotypes basically. I'd always considered myself gender nonconforming anyway I suppose and always felt like an outsider as a bisexual, autistic, gender critical female being bullied in an girls high school. I think a lot of girls who use terms like non binary are probably coming at this from the same place as I was, a rejection of sexist gender ideology, they just don't have the tools or the language to express this coherently and struggle to apply gender critical views to real life situations for fear of causing offence or hurt to transpeople, plus the fact that non-binary 'identity' particularly the idea of being agender having been co-opted into a wider 'trans*' community can be confusing for young people. I was welcomed into LGBTQ groups and genuinely felt I had some sort of closeness or connection to young transmen and transwomen through my identity as non-binary. Which now I'm older and more educated I see how that was ludicrous given I never subscribed to the gender ideology that their whole transition experience was based on! Sorry for the ramble but hope that might be of some use in considering where your sister might be coming from.

@GNCQ

It's utterly ridiculous.

Girls in the 70's (80's/90's) were called "tomboys" because sexist people couldn't accept girls to be happy in "boys" attire doing thing reserved for "boys" even though the girls themselves were perfectly happy and knew full well they were female and happy with that.

.... Has now become-
Sexist people say that if a girl is dressing/playing like a "boy" she should breastbind/chop off her tits and change her name to a boys name, stick her on testosterone with permanent changes including infertility and higher risk of cancer.

How progressive.

How I long for the 70's.

"How I long for the 70's."

Really?

@AssassinatedBeauty

"Tomboy" is a sexist description of a girl that doesn't behave in ways that are considered feminine. No girl is a tomboy, they are girls with their own personality.

Trying to deflect the conversation away from the fact that some trans girls are tomboys by making it about the word "tomboy" is not going to work.

The fact remains - gender identity and gender norms are 2 different things. That's why some trans girls are tomboys, and it remains a fact whether or not you like the word "tomboy".

The fact remains - gender identity and gender norms are 2 different things

So what is gender identity based on if not gender norms?

I will gladly apologise for a de-rail caused by my personal dislike of the sexist term "tomboy". One which was used negatively about me as a child and teenager by some.

Still don't have any explanation of what gender identity is beyond an indescribable inscrutable feeling with no identifiers.

Tomboy is a ghastly expression.

So far as AssainatedBeauty's and GNCQ'S criticism of it, the word is used on this board by posters saying they were tomboys- without any qualification about it "being back in the day". So I'm not sure that Shizaku is the only poster who didn't get the message about it being outdated and sexist.

As for longing for the 1970s.... really?

Tomboy is such a sexist term. It reminds me of the nasty old word for prostitute.

"Tom" meaning a prostitute is a slang term used in London UK, and, if TV shows are to be believed, its usage is particularly prevalent in the Police Force. ... Some have claimed that "tom" meaning a prostitute derives from "Thomas More" equalling "w h o r e".

I can't see a lot of difference between the judgement behind tom and tomboy. In both cases it's that girls have exceeded the acceptable female boundaries and must be labelled.

Using it to explain typically male activities in males is barrel bottom scraping at it's worst.

Growing up I didn’t want to be a girl. I knew I was physically but I wasn’t happy with what it meant in 1970s/80s society. Being called a tomboy was a relief as I escaped from femininity that I just couldn’t identify with. My family embraced me as I was. Now I feel I’d have been pushed into claiming a non binary identity by peers but I’d have had peers that I didn’t have growing up as a tomboy. I know people hate the term but for me it was something positive.

Growing up autistic you recognise your difference from a very early age and you look for reasons. I decided the reason I didn’t have many friends was because I didn’t like what society told
Me was traditionally girl things so tomboy was safe for me. I don’t believe it’s any different now growing up as autistic just that there’s an entire ideology built around gender that forces kids who were like me to pick a side... and as autistics we are looking for ways to fit in. Queer groups are ideal as they claim they celebrate and accept difference, as adults we can see that it’s conformity not difference at all but as a child we’re looking for our safe places, where we are made to feel we belong. As an autistic child we’ll accept anywhere that will accept us as we are. The attraction of non binary is that it’s not against a so-called societal norm it is a category where not fitting in is the norm.

On the face of it, it’s harmless but taken as part of a wider trans agenda, labelling it trans non binary draws it into a different circle. One that forces binary onto everyone and makes stereotypes acceptable along with all the other crap TRA throws at us.

It’s so bloody hard growing up as an autistic girl. Nothing you do is socially right and nowhere accepts you, even when they say they do.

OP I’d tread carefully. I’m am totally gender critical but what your sister is seeking is acceptance from peers - not her parents or you. You may need to play along a bit while keeping an eye on things. Introducing her to gender critical theories won’t necessarily give her the peer based family she seeks. I see it in adult autistic communities all the time so the need for acceptance doesn’t just go away post puberty and the voracity with which autistic women are in support of trans issues suggests that until wider society makes a change that it’s not going to be a simple fix.

I agree that gender identity isn't the same as gender expression, despite the fact that gender expression is used to diagnose gender dysphoria.
That's why there should be no pressure on this child to change their appearance or body whatsoever. One can absolutely be non-binary exactly as you are - yet lots of people bind their breasts or take hormones to change their bodies, despite gender identity being a "freestanding" innate thing that doesn't need to reference a sexed body or gender expression to manifest itself.

GCAutist

I'm glad it helped you in your time.

Your last sentence is really helpful to me. Non binary is a safe identity without it needing it to be trans non binary.

As for longing for the 1970s.... really?

Yeah... Is it not so hard to grasp that gender non conforming girls were left alone apart from being labelled "tomboys".

They were not put on puberty blockers, given breast binders, given testosterone etc. They were not labelled "trans". They were labelled "tomboys". Because the idea of gender non conformity was not a medical issue back then.

So, as far as wellbeing for gender non conforming girls is concerned, yes the 70's was more progressive.

To be fair being female makes us all vulnerable? So of course a 11 year old female is vulnerable, even more so when they have ASD, I’m not sure being non binary makes her even more vulnerable?

My dd also has ASD and identifies as pan sexual, she is also vulnerable not because of how she labels herself but due to being young and naive, she doesn’t really understand the threat males are too females and how a man now identifying as female could be a risk. I’m sure most teens are the same?

To me non binary means many things, I guess of I was a teen now I would identify as non binary, I have never really been girly but am very much a female, I sometimes wear girls clothes and sometimes wear men’s clothes but most of my clothes are probably suitable for both sexes. I like to think I can do anything a man can (apart from the obvious), I try and fix things myself, my hobbies are often what some may call “male hobbies” but women do them too. Most of my friends are male and I’m often called “one of the lads”. I use the female toilets though I have been into male toilets when I was younger as there’s never a queue 🤣. Was I vulnerable as a child/teen? Yes, very much so but again it was due to my age and me not realising what men were capable of.

I think it’s important that we educate ours daughters of the risks males pose to females and how men using female spaces is a huge risk. I don’t care what my dd identifies as or what I identify as but what maters is that females are safe from males.

"To be fair being female makes us all vulnerable?"

Obvs, but not vulnerable to family rejection, unemployability, bullying, and homelessness just for being cis. Nor do you have people on Mumsnet advising your family members to find ways to stop you being yourself, and referring them to hate groups for advice.

Cis privilege, eh?

But vulnerable to unemplyability and bullying just for being female

And additional bullying/ostracism if you are not sufficiently feminine female

Hate groups? What people who say there is nothing wrong if you don't fit the female mould? People who say you don't need any medical treatment just to be yourself ? Yeah real hate

I know who I think are the hate groups and it seems like you represent them

@Shizuku

"To be fair being female makes us all vulnerable?"

Obvs, but not vulnerable to family rejection, unemployability, bullying, and homelessness just for being cis. Nor do you have people on Mumsnet advising your family members to find ways to stop you being yourself, and referring them to hate groups for advice.

Cis privilege, eh?

These comments are ridiculous and incorrect. Being female definitely does carry with it very real risks of all the things you mention - family rejection (due to patriarchal sex stereotyping, particularly if you're gender-conforming or not 'feminine' enough to meet your family's particular gender steorotyped expectations), unemployment (due to sex-based discrimination), bullying (again sex-based), and homelessness (particularly as women generally earn less than men and are more likely to be in abusive relationships, both of which are clear risk factors for ending up homeless). There are also many people who would 'advise' women and girls 'to find ways to stop you being yourself' if they didn't met those people's ideas of what is acceptable behaviour for someone of the female sex. Your post is totally disingenous and completely ignores the structural discrimination that women face in virtually every aspect of their life. A bizarre post in the 'feminism chat' section.