Help explain non binary

[Educationneeded]

Hi, thread was inspired by the other about coming out as GC. I have name changed as I’m not ready to be outed so just incase.

I am GC, although only have expressed my views to close friends and family. My younger sister is due to go up to high school in September and six months ago came out as non binary. We all believe this decision was heavily influenced by TikTok and the wokeness on there.

My parents don’t really understand. My Dad just rolls his eyes but my Mum wants to learn however doesn’t know much on the subject and has asked me to talk to my sister. I have no idea how to even approach the topic with her. Anyone have any guidance? Anything I can tell or show my Mum? I’ve read a lot on trans and women’s right but not much on non binary and don’t really know where to start with this minefield. I guess I’d like to educate myself too.

I broadly agree, although quite a lot of people are quite stereotypical with regards to gender expression

That is most likely because 'gender' is formed out of an inter-play between natal sex and social conditioning/expectation.

...and even after transition many people still conform to the gendered expectations of their natal sex.

blackwhiteandstripey

I agree. If they're women and have always been women, then surely any surgical procedures (facial feminisation surgery, breast implants, genital reconstruction surgery) would be categorised as elective cosmetic surgery, which the NHS doesn't typically cover.

Trans people don't "adopt" their identities, they just notice what their identities are. Gender identity is not a matter of choice - there's nothing you can do about it - it is what it is

Identities shift and change throughout one's life; in response to time, experience, social relationships, and events. How one feels even about fixed characteristics such as sex or race shifts too.

You mean she doesn't have blue-eye identity, she just wishes she had blue eyes because she thinks it would solve her problems. So it's not analogous with gender identity

I suggest that the whole concept of 'identity' as it is now posited in contemporary society is really quite a recent thing. It seems to have arisen out of various post modern trends around individualism, consumer culture and social media.

I am loving the word migraineur, I have never heard it before smile

It sounds somewhat like an identity. It is not simply having migraines, it is part of ones essential or true self.

Woman is a word denoting a discrete biological group. Applying it to males, however they identify, is nonsensical.

There's no inner feminine soul that makes someone a human. Just biology.

@Justhadathought

You mean she doesn't have blue-eye identity, she just wishes she had blue eyes because she thinks it would solve her problems. So it's not analogous with gender identity

I suggest that the whole concept of 'identity' as it is now posited in contemporary society is really quite a recent thing. It seems to have arisen out of various post modern trends around individualism, consumer culture and social media.

Agree. I was trying to think when I first heard anyone talk about identity, not long ago certainly.

Personality and tastes have now become this weird labelling of everything as an “identity”. Yet personality and tastes change throughout life as we mature and develop.

Some folk obviously don't mature and develop!

How can someone mature and develop if they never go through puberty?

Shizuku stated:

Yes - trans women don't "change sex" because they were already female. That's the whole reason they had to transition.

I had understood trans people wanting to be called women (TWAW), but I'd not realised that they believed they are actually of the female sex. I thought woman was being used as a gender identity. Is this the accepted view, as I can't see how this isn't treated as a mental health issue if so?

Itreallytiedtheroomtogether

And yet, we are told no one was denying sex anymore.

On other threads last night Shizuku claimed that female was a gender identity. And that woman is not a gender identity.

Seems to be incredibly contradictory. Yet is a classic destabilization tactic. Clumsily done, mind you. I guess it all depends on how heavily invested you are in this.

@Itreallytiedtheroomtogether

Shizuku stated:

Yes - trans women don't "change sex" because they were already female. That's the whole reason they had to transition.

I had understood trans people wanting to be called women (TWAW), but I'd not realised that they believed they are actually of the female sex. I thought woman was being used as a gender identity. Is this the accepted view, as I can't see how this isn't treated as a mental health issue if so?

There are 1000s of biological sex characteristics. GC people prioritise either gametes, gonads, chromosomes or socialisation (depends which GC you ask and when you ask them I find), and we prioritise gender identity.

You don't have to agree, but that's what we do.

www.endocrine.org/advocacy/position-statements/transgender-health

"The medical consensus in the late 20th century was that transgender and gender incongruent individuals suffered a mental health disorder termed “gender identity disorder.” Gender identity was considered malleable and subject to external influences. Today, however, this attitude is no longer considered valid. Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity.1, 2 Individuals may make choices due to other factors in their lives, but there do not seem to be external forces that genuinely cause individuals to change gender identity."

The Endocrine society also then released this statement though... Which clearly says sex and gender identity are not the same and that biological sex is dimorphic and very much matters.

www.endocrine.org/news-and-advocacy/news-room/2021/biological-differences-between-females-males-need-to-be-considered-in-scientific-studies

Thanks DonnieDark

Here is more. It was posted up thread but maybe it wasn’t clear that it is from the Endocrine Society.

academic.oup.com/edrv/advance-article/doi/10.1210/endrev/bnaa034/6159361#.YG386Eqj1v4.twitter

Considering Sex as a Biological Variable in Basic and Clinical Studies: An Endocrine Society Scientific Statement

11 March 2021

Sex is an important biological variable that must be considered in the design and analysis of human and animal research. The terms sex and gender should not be used interchangeably. Sex is dichotomous, with sex determination in the fertilized zygote stemming from unequal expression of sex chromosomal genes. By contrast, gender includes perception of the individual as male, female, or other, both by the individual and by society; both humans and animals have sex, but only humans have gender.

Relevant:

For example, a person with testes and a penis, who cannot make sperm, is usually classified as a biological male, as long as the person does not possess female features such as a vagina, ovaries, or uterus. Based on evidence presented, to define male and female individuals in general society, we expand the defining characteristics of sex to include nongonadal traits, as well as classical gonadal traits.

There are 1000s of biological sex characteristics.

Yes, but sex characteristics are not sex. They're characteristics of a individual of that sex. And you have to know what sex someone/something is to know which sex the sex characteristic is characteristic of.

We didn't just randomly assign "beard = male", "penis = male", "breasts = female", "vagina = female".

GC people prioritise either gametes, gonads, chromosomes or socialisation

And just to pick on this - in what circumstance would you ever need to prioritise these?

Sex is determined by which of the two roles you take in reproduction. Like all mammals, one male and one female can produce offspring.

Your sex is determined by which sex you can successfully mate with. You're the opposite one. It's as simple as that.

The only time you'd need to look more deeply is if someone is infertile. Even then, there's normally no ambiguity - they would have ALL of one sex's characteristics, so no need to prioritise. No conflict. And you know which way to treat their infertility - whether you're going to try to get sperm or eggs functional.

So all we're left with where you'd have to prioritise if you wanted a sex determination is totally infertile individuals with DSDs. And at that point, you have to question what the sex determination is for. The reason for asking the question may lead to different prioritisations. Eg for sport, you'd be looking at overall body type. For attempts to treat fertility, you'd be looking at gametes.

@NecessaryScene1

There are 1000s of biological sex characteristics.

Yes, but sex characteristics are not sex. They're characteristics of a individual of that sex. And you have to know what sex someone/something is to know which sex the sex characteristic is characteristic of.

We didn't just randomly assign "beard = male", "penis = male", "breasts = female", "vagina = female".

Sex is made of sex characteristics.

I agree - beards aren't randomly assigned male, they are observed to be more common on males. never-the-less, some women have beards.

Exactly which is why beards are not used to determine sex

They are commonly associated primarily with males , so there is a greater probability that the person with a beard is male but that's all

Sex is made of sex characteristics.

Sex is chromosomes

And yes some characteristics are specific to either sex

@NecessaryScene1

GC people prioritise either gametes, gonads, chromosomes or socialisation

And just to pick on this - in what circumstance would you ever need to prioritise these?

Sex is determined by which of the two roles you take in reproduction. Like all mammals, one male and one female can produce offspring.

Your sex is determined by which sex you can successfully mate with. You're the opposite one. It's as simple as that.

The only time you'd need to look more deeply is if someone is infertile. Even then, there's normally no ambiguity - they would have ALL of one sex's characteristics, so no need to prioritise. No conflict. And you know which way to treat their infertility - whether you're going to try to get sperm or eggs functional.

So all we're left with where you'd have to prioritise if you wanted a sex determination is totally infertile individuals with DSDs. And at that point, you have to question what the sex determination is for. The reason for asking the question may lead to different prioritisations. Eg for sport, you'd be looking at overall body type. For attempts to treat fertility, you'd be looking at gametes.

"Sex is determined by which of the two roles you take in reproduction."

That's one way of attempting to divide people into sexes, but it's not the only one, and it's not the one I, and many other people use. The rest of your post is derived from your assumption that it's all about reproduction.

"So all we're left with where you'd have to prioritise if you wanted a sex determination is totally infertile individuals with DSDs."

Ask them. Would you categorise someone with CAIS as male because of their testes? Would you then impose a legal and social status of male on them, or would you categorise them as female for pretty much every practical aspects of their daily life?

People can try to warp the language but the biological reality can’t be changed wrt to XX or XY

@MarshaBradyo

Sex is made of sex characteristics.

Sex is chromosomes

And yes some characteristics are specific to either sex

Now it's chromosomes instead of gametes. OK.