Well, that's us told

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

lux-magazine.com/article/the-road-to-terfdom/

This is an article about Mumsnet FWR boards. Author doesn't like us. Oh dear.

As I read thread after thread, I noticed that many of the posters wrote about feeling newly disenfranchised and isolated after giving birth for the first time; cast out of a society in which they had previously enjoyed power by virtue of their relative wealth and education.

What? I've been on this board years and have never seen anyone say this. What people do say is that pregnancy and childbirth make them more aware of how important biology is.

“Believed to be”

This is a key phrase. Believed to be by whom? What is actually going on is it’s comforting for these people to paint all those who post here as the same generic mass of “evil” ideology - right wing, fundamentalist, evangelical, middle-aged, middle class straight women - because the reality just doesn’t bear thinking about. It’s inconceivable to them that anyone who is posting here opposed to them could be gay, lesbian, working class, left wing, black, Asian etc because to conceive such a possibility means they’d have to stop and think “maybe these posters have a point” and that would never do.

The disdain and superiority that drips from the author’s use of slurs simply reinforces the detachment from reality that comes from dehumanising people by grouping people and labeling them. When someone is so unable to see past the ‘te*f’ label to actually understand the point of view held, it results in so many inaccuracies contained in the article.

Like those who come from twitter with the intent to shame the woman for discussing the areas of conflicts between the rights of women and girls and another groups rights. They too often have nothing substantial to offer in the way of evidence to support their assertions.

All they have is the firm belief that are righteous.

I think it is hugely important for us to not fall into this trap. I think the majority of regular posters, journos and writers who are writing from this perspective, succeed by not dehumanising the people in the group whose rights are causing that conflict.

For instance, when you realize that the term Trans Rights Activists also includes those fighting along women holding the line, calling someone a TRA loses its bite. Better to fight the argument than to write it off as a ‘TRA’ view, iyswim.

It is this prejudice that makes this article so full of wild and broad assumptions and utter contempt at those the author feels she has labeled the hateful ‘te*rfs’.

It must be wonderfully reassuring to those who read it. It relies on old tropes and misogyny.

It makes for a bonkers read from my perspective.

Brilliant article, thanks for sharing. I hope she deconstructs this thread as well.

This particular paragraph seems very relevant:

The community isolates its members in a bubble of transphobic thought that leaves them free to develop their bigotries without needing to encounter the human beings affected by them.

This thread is a perfect example of that.

Fabulous work Katie, thank you 😊

I've been around these parts for over a decade and have never had a pregnancy, let alone given birth.

@LibertyMole

‘TERFs believe that women are defined by their biological differences from men. They want liberation from gender stereotypes, but don’t think it’s possible to be freed from biological sex, and argue the latter goal is not just naive but hurts efforts to combat sexual violence and discrimination.'

I assume someone writing that is secretly gender critical. It sums up gender critical beliefs really well and almost everyone will agree with it.

That and other quotes like the giving birth one basically function as an advert for gender critical feminism.

She's so close to getting it.

It shows a singular lack of critical thought and reading comprehension to persist in conflating prioritisation of women’s rights by women as being “transphobic”, and entirely to ignore safeguarding concerns.

I despair.

Katie J.M. Baker writes, "In December, the U.K.’s Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO) reported a “dramatic” rise in news coverage of trans people with an accompanying “increase in questioning tone.” The mainstream media treats “trans people as an ‘issue’ and trans people as a ‘problem,’” said jane fae, the chair of Trans Media Watch."

relevant threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374614-John-Ozimek-now-Jane-Fae-on-women-feminists-and-victims-of-pornographers

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4097977-Unbelievable-projection-from-Jane-Fae-on-puberty-blockers

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3869907-Jane-Fae-The-coronavirus-death-rate-for-men-is-high-possibly-because-women-are-not-pulling-their-weight-in-the-crisis

'Trans Media Watch' members have a long history of trying to control what/how women may discuss sex based rights and Safeguarding matters on Mumsnet's Feminism and Women's Rights board
2018
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238618-Trans-Media-Watch-has-written-to-parliament-saying-trans-identified-male-can-be-considered-as-hate-speech-and-that-Mumsnet-users-referring-to-penises-are-being-transphobic

2016
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2783139-Trans-media-watch-are-lobbying-mnhq

January 2018 Helen Belcher Ted Talk on the power of the six members of Trans Media Watch.
'Changing Media'
www.ted.com/talks/helen_belcher_changing_media

but don’t think it’s possible to be freed from biological sex

How irrational!

Yes, the cheerful use of dehumanising slurs throughout the article leapt out at me too.

It read like something written by someone with personal animus. I’d guess that Katie has had her arse handed to her on at least one occasion by the posters here

@Skyliner001

Brilliant article, thanks for sharing. I hope she deconstructs this thread as well.

This particular paragraph seems very relevant:

The community isolates its members in a bubble of transphobic thought that leaves them free to develop their bigotries without needing to encounter the human beings affected by them.

This thread is a perfect example of that.

I too would love for her to come and deconstruct this thread as well. By highlighting the significant bias she has, she completely reduces her credibility as anything but an opinion writer with an unbalanced view.

Another totally false trope that gets repeated is that "MNers don't know any trans people" when there are whole long-running threads of us who are either trans (or don't identify as "cis"), have trans partners, or trans children.

Again I cringe at people saying this as they clearly haven't read or understood more than the odd post here or there.

@EdgeOfACoin

Well, maybe if she could come and present some cogent arguments (as opposed to circular definitions and repetitive mantras), there would be less 'radicalisation' going on.

Lots of people have lurked on these boards and seen the arguments for themselves. The lack of a sensible response from the TRA perspective had a big impact on the formation of my views and I know I'm not alone.

It's telling that so many people monitor this board hoping to get posts deleted and threads shut down rather than coming and backing up their opinion with evidence from credible sources.

Umm..why would we want to come here of all places to debate with you? Why the hell would any trans person feel the need to subject themselves to being dog piled and dehumanised by a bunch of people who are completely consumed by their existence? Personally I've given up with you a long time ago as good faith debate is clearly not possible - frankly, I'd prefer to just wait it out until the moral panic subsides, the UK looks really backwards and sensible changes have to be made.

Minus the MN-specific part, this piece is pretty much a carbon copy of this 2019 NYT Opinion Piece already dissected here by Jane Clare Jones.

As for the MN-specific part: did Sarah Pederson really tell this person that it would all go away because the UK Government put GRA reform on hold? I find that difficult to believe because it shows absolutely no understanding of the wider situation in the UK and internationally, and especially as Sarah lives and works in Scotland and must be aware of the continuing and escalating situation there as well as developments in other devolved areas.

@CardinalLolzy

Another totally false trope that gets repeated is that "MNers don't know any trans people" when there are whole long-running threads of us who are either trans (or don't identify as "cis"), have trans partners, or trans children.

Again I cringe at people saying this as they clearly haven't read or understood more than the odd post here or there.

Don't you know we live in a bubble and only interact with other middle class, heterosexual, white women in real life?

There are earlier others that that one was pretty much a carbon copy of. It's a lazy piece of misogynistic shite which gets trotted out every so often.

There have been others which specifically mentioned MN before too.

Minus the MN-specific part, this piece is pretty much a carbon copy of this 2019 NYT Opinion Piece already dissected here by Jane Clare Jones.

Its very similar to a 2018 Vice article By Eve Livingston which featured the 'monitors' of FWR:
'How an Online Forum for Moms Became a Toxic Hotbed of Transphobia
Mumsnet boasts of its political influence and hosts chats with Hillary Clinton and UK politicians. So how has it become ground zero for British transphobia?'
(extract)
"Since 2016, Mumsnet—specifically its Feminism board—has increasingly found itself on the receiving end of criticism from trans people and their allies. “When I started using Twitter and engaging in the trans sphere in mid-2017, Mumsnet was constantly referenced both on my timeline and in DMs,” says Joss Prior, a trans woman who is part of a sizable trans community that monitors and discusses Mumsnet regularly. “The whole of the Feminism board was like a spectre hanging over the daily trans discourse.

Prior points to the now partially-deleted but notorious 2016 “I Am Spartacus” thread in which a user asserted that “men cannot become women, ever. Women cannot become men, ever” and went on to misgender a number of trans men and women, including high-profile campaigners Paris Lees and Danielle Muscato. The post sparked thousands of supportive comments and is consistently referenced in up-to-date threads, with “I am Spartacus” acting as a shorthand rallying call for anti-trans feminists. (continues)

“It’s a core group of a few hundred hardcore trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs), a tiny percentage of overall users,” says Christine, the mother of a trans child and also part of the network that regularly monitors Mumsnet. (Christine’s name has been changed for privacy reasons.) “Yet the Feminism board is just 90 percent discussions about trans people on any given day.” (continues)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3445268-To-be-shocked-that-Mn-has-been-branded-a-hotbed-of-transphobia

2018 Pink News by India Willoughby
(extract)
"Mumsnet’s reputation for transphobia is fully deserved. Hardliners openly strategise ways to make life tougher for trans people: Passengers warned not to travel on sleeper trains because they might end up in the same sleeping berth as a woman who’s trans. Support gathered to stop trans women being allowed on Labour’s all-women shortlists. National meeting organised where they can clap and cheer their hatred.
It’s all very similar to the way the National Front used to operate.
I’m sure most people who use the site are decent folk. They want nothing to do with the rabid mouth-frothing going on by so-called “feminists.” (continues)
"Last week was my first ever visit to Mumsnet. Honestly, I thought it was going to be lots of stuff about prams, or family-related matters. A sort of online This Morning minus Phil and Holly. The reality is more like a Nuremberg Rally. It’s very scary." (continues)

archive.fo/GB8bv

have never posted on here before, but I read the board every day. I don’t post as I just don’t feel I ever have much to add. The women on here are all so much more articulate and well-informed than me. So I come here to learn.

I read the article and probably an one of the ‘radicalised by mumsnet’ types! I also did come to mumsnet for the babies and stay for the feminism! So I feel like I want to have my ‘right to reply’, or something.

I feel like she missed the point a little bit with regards to new mothers. I haven’t found myself isolated and unsupported since becoming a mother. If anything, the opposite. I think becoming a mother connected me to my body and the physicality of being female in a way that I have never experienced before (if it’s relevant, I have - of course - experienced sex-based violence and harassment from men). And mother connected me to other females, other women who have gone through pregnancy, childbirth, and motherhood. There are some experiences that are uniquely female. That’s not to say that you’re not a woman if you don’t have these experiences or anything ludicrous like that or that there is anything like a homogenous female experience (which is why I find it so difficult to understand how someone ‘feels like’ a woman). But I do think that at least for me becoming a mother has encouraged me to reflect on what it means to be female and to be a woman. And I feel angered when people are trying to at once appropriate (trans women have periods type statements) and dilute (pregnant people etc) that. I hope that’s not too much of a cliche. I would add that I’ve always been liberal, left wing, and feminist. I just didn’t know about a lot of this before. And, possibly, before becoming a mother I might not have seen the significance of changes to language which have the effect of erasing women.

I won’t repeat what others have said, as like I say I’m not going to be offering anything new. But, it did make me chuckle that they want to abolish the police and have nice things?! what a bizarre set of priorities!

That should say “and motherhood connected me”.

[quote R0wantrees]Minus the MN-specific part, this piece is pretty much a carbon copy of this 2019 NYT Opinion Piece already dissected here by Jane Clare Jones.

Its very similar to a 2018 Vice article By Eve Livingston which featured the 'monitors' of FWR:
'How an Online Forum for Moms Became a Toxic Hotbed of Transphobia
Mumsnet boasts of its political influence and hosts chats with Hillary Clinton and UK politicians. So how has it become ground zero for British transphobia?'
(extract)
"Since 2016, Mumsnet—specifically its Feminism board—has increasingly found itself on the receiving end of criticism from trans people and their allies. “When I started using Twitter and engaging in the trans sphere in mid-2017, Mumsnet was constantly referenced both on my timeline and in DMs,” says Joss Prior, a trans woman who is part of a sizable trans community that monitors and discusses Mumsnet regularly. “The whole of the Feminism board was like a spectre hanging over the daily trans discourse.

Prior points to the now partially-deleted but notorious 2016 “I Am Spartacus” thread in which a user asserted that “men cannot become women, ever. Women cannot become men, ever” and went on to misgender a number of trans men and women, including high-profile campaigners Paris Lees and Danielle Muscato. The post sparked thousands of supportive comments and is consistently referenced in up-to-date threads, with “I am Spartacus” acting as a shorthand rallying call for anti-trans feminists. (continues)

“It’s a core group of a few hundred hardcore trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs), a tiny percentage of overall users,” says Christine, the mother of a trans child and also part of the network that regularly monitors Mumsnet. (Christine’s name has been changed for privacy reasons.) “Yet the Feminism board is just 90 percent discussions about trans people on any given day.” (continues)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3445268-To-be-shocked-that-Mn-has-been-branded-a-hotbed-of-transphobia

2018 Pink News by India Willoughby
(extract)
"Mumsnet’s reputation for transphobia is fully deserved. Hardliners openly strategise ways to make life tougher for trans people: Passengers warned not to travel on sleeper trains because they might end up in the same sleeping berth as a woman who’s trans. Support gathered to stop trans women being allowed on Labour’s all-women shortlists. National meeting organised where they can clap and cheer their hatred.
It’s all very similar to the way the National Front used to operate.
I’m sure most people who use the site are decent folk. They want nothing to do with the rabid mouth-frothing going on by so-called “feminists.” (continues)
"Last week was my first ever visit to Mumsnet. Honestly, I thought it was going to be lots of stuff about prams, or family-related matters. A sort of online This Morning minus Phil and Holly. The reality is more like a Nuremberg Rally. It’s very scary." (continues)

archive.fo/GB8bv[/quote]

National Front? Nuremberg March?

Can they hear themselves? Unhinged hyperbole.

Bancha just beat me to it - all the posts raised so far say it all and better than I could, but sometimes you've just got to join in and say me too - these Twittersphere journos are, first and foremost, wrong, do not speak for me, and it's important to stand up for FWR.

In my experience here the only things given short shrift on this board are dishonesty and disingenuity, which these kind of over-emotional hit pieces are always riddled with. Posters here ask for evidence, reasoning and proof, and are blunt with it. Nothing gets past them and 'feels' cut no ice. Outsiders don't like it and aren't used to it, so this board is judged as being full of (checks Katie's notes) 'evil bigots'. I've come to appreciate the no-nonsense approach here so much more over recent months. It has cut through so much bullshit.

This board is more grounded in reality than many news outlets these days. How keen they are to dismiss the concerns, experiences and intellect of mothers and older women is more appalling than I ever feared.

In my experience here the only things given short shrift on this board are dishonesty and disingenuity, which these kind of over-emotional hit pieces are always riddled with. Posters here ask for evidence, reasoning and proof, and are blunt with it. Nothing gets past them and 'feels' cut no ice. Outsiders don't like it and aren't used to it

So true.

I must admit, that those who continue to wag the ‘pointy finger of shame’ at women discussing the conflicts between the rights of women and girls and another group seem to completely ignore the other transmen and transwomen who post here. Those who don’t completely subscribe to any side who merely come and converse. And by not taking an arrogant, disdainful approach actually give nuance to the discussion.

It is like, I don’t know, every transperson is an individual.