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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Well, that's us told

358 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 13/04/2021 20:14

lux-magazine.com/article/the-road-to-terfdom/

This is an article about Mumsnet FWR boards. Author doesn't like us. Oh dear.

OP posts:
CardinalLolzy · 14/04/2021 10:31

I've been here years. It's nearly always the same people who make emotive statements and say we won't engage as the ones who either can't or won't answer very straightforward questions about gender.
There are one or two regulars that do sometimes attempt to engage, and that is appreciated, but it does usually come with a side of deflecting when you start getting down to the uncomfortable bits (I've noticed casual homophobia, misgendering, racism and misogyny by TRAs for example, but attempting to examine those attitudes is never engaged with).
The discussion nearly always turns to (a) toilets or (b) what they think the FWR board is like.

CardinalLolzy · 14/04/2021 10:34

Also I find the absolute insistence, in these articles, that MN is all about "prams" or "strollers" just bizarre. Surreal. I think I've read one thread about pushchairs and that was the one where the same poster replied to her op years later.
The most popular topics are in-laws, covid, abusive relationships and wedding slights.

terryleather · 14/04/2021 10:44

@CardinalLolzy

Also I find the absolute insistence, in these articles, that MN is all about "prams" or "strollers" just bizarre. Surreal. I think I've read one thread about pushchairs and that was the one where the same poster replied to her op years later. The most popular topics are in-laws, covid, abusive relationships and wedding slights.
And parking. Preferably with diagrams...
Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 10:44

Always the casual misogyny that women who have had kids just want (and should just want) to talk about prams, rather than politics, and their own rights.

CircleofWillis · 14/04/2021 10:51

@SapphosRock

Research shows that nearly all Mumsnetters are women. More specifically, they are believed to be mostly white, middle-class, heterosexual women

Looking at her journalist profile, the author also appears to be white and middle class with nothing to suggest she is homosexual 🤷‍♀️

'Believed to be'? So she is assuming everyone is like her? Am I supposed to 'sound black' in some way or maybe just announce 'I'm black' at the start of each post so that she can keep accurate statistics.
EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 14/04/2021 11:00

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Always the casual misogyny that women who have had kids just want (and should just want) to talk about prams, rather than politics, and their own rights.
I think that’s how they define ‘cis’ women though. The ones who fully embrace all those old-fashioned gender stereotypes.
Viviennemary · 14/04/2021 11:02

I think they've got a point. Only on MN is this rampant frothing over trans men or is it trans women. If this was any other minority group there would be hell to pay. I think folk should give it a rest.,

R0wantrees · 14/04/2021 11:05

Only on MN is this rampant frothing over trans men or is it trans women.

I find "rampant frothing" such a curious turn of phrase.

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 14/04/2021 11:10

Women raising concerns about their rights to privacy, dignity, safe spaces and safeguarding children are like animals (angry dogs or something)? Just stepping over that misogynistic mess.

WarriorN · 14/04/2021 11:14

The community isolates its members in a bubble of transphobic thought that leaves them free to develop their bigotries without needing to encounter the human beings affected by them.

What a hoot!

They have no idea how women are organising around this, off mn.

And ignores past trans rational posters here.

The whole thing is an antiwoman, anti mother, agist and sexist moan/ smear.

(Anti mother as it assumes that mums can't think properly 🤔)

Cattenberg · 14/04/2021 11:36

@CardinalLolzy

Also I find the absolute insistence, in these articles, that MN is all about "prams" or "strollers" just bizarre. Surreal. I think I've read one thread about pushchairs and that was the one where the same poster replied to her op years later. The most popular topics are in-laws, covid, abusive relationships and wedding slights.
Yes, there’s usually an intro about how Mumsnet is mainly a dull place where mums talk about potty-training or sleep routines. Because everyone knows that mums are mumsy - frumpy and boring with no interests apart from childcare.

Yet, some of the mums have got a bee in their bonnet about something. How funny! Well, it sounds amusing until you realise that these mums are probably right-wing fascists. And racists and homophobes too.

Don’t worry, we’ve been monitoring Mumsnet, so we can report back on what these mums are really thinking and the reasons why they’ve got their knickers in a twist. No, we didn’t ask any of them to write an article themselves, because they won’t understand why they behave the way they do. They’re just mums.

AfternoonToffee · 14/04/2021 11:50

'Believed to be'? So she is assuming everyone is like her? Am I supposed to 'sound black' in some way or maybe just announce 'I'm black' at the start of each post so that she can keep accurate statistics.

Well first thing we should do obviously is announce our pronouns, followed by, and in no particular order our characteristics under the Equality Act. Every time, every post, we need to include this information. Let's get with the re program.

JustGotHere · 14/04/2021 11:57

I love it here. Just this topic title being the reaction is all it takes to reaffirm that and I can’t stop smiling when I see it.

R0wantrees · 14/04/2021 12:00

Newstatesman
Glosswitch
10 MAY 2018
'The demonisation of Mumsnet is just the latest incarnation of witch-hunting
Naturally, it frightens people to think of what a group of mothers might actually demand.'
(extract)
“The deliberate withdrawal of women from men has almost always been seen as a potentially dangerous or hostile act, a conspiracy, a subversion, a needless and grotesque thing.” Thus wrote Adrienne Rich in 1976’s Of Woman Born, her seminal exploration of the politics of motherhood. From the workers gossiping in the spinning circle to old wives passing down knowledge of contraception and abortion, women gathered in isolation have long been considered untrustworthy. What might they be saying? What could they be plotting? And how, above all, might they be controlled?

It’s a problem that’s never gone away, though the context has changed. Anxiety over women’s speech – fuelling violent backlash in the form of witch trials and scold’s bridles – arose at a time when, to quote Marina Warner, “women dominated the webs of information and power; the neighbourhood, the village, the well, the washing place, the shops, the stalls, the street were their arena of influence, not only the household”. (continues)

I bloody love Mumsnet (even if Mumsnet users haven’t always loved me). Whether you grasp the politics behind it or not, its very existence as a modern-day spinning circle/witches’ coven reminds us of female resistance to marginalisation and of the fear this provokes in others.

Like earlier attitudes towards gossips and hags, today’s attitudes towards Mumsnet mothers are a measure of how all mothers – and by extension all women – are perceived. By that, I don’t mean all women are Mumsnet mummies at heart, but that responses to those women provide a measure of what all women can get away with. (continues)

And yet, mean or otherwise, unless one takes into account the historical fear and demonisation of women communicating without supervision, it is frankly bizarre to see activists appointing themselves monitors of Mumsnet conversations on the relationship between sex and gender. It is both disproportionate and a distraction from meaningful work to dismantle stereotypes.

The political engagement of mothers and older women matters. Naturally it frightens people to think of what these highly-exploited groups might actually demand – and of the services they might stop providing – if a sufficient level of organisation could be achieved. This has always been the case, long before the internet came into being. This is the context in which we should see pushback against Mumsnet when compared to other, far more offensive but somehow less vilified social networks." (continues)
www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/05/demonisation-mumsnet-just-latest-incarnation-witch-hunting

RoyalCorgi · 14/04/2021 12:04

From the article: "I was baffled to learn these feminists were finding each other on Mumsnet, a collection of message boards I’d previously turned to for advice on how to descale my dishwasher and associated with smug, bougie mums comparing high-end strollers and complaining about the neighbor’s dog eating their begonias. How wrong I was to underestimate Mumsnet."

Well, one sentence in there is correct.

MrsMidClegs · 14/04/2021 12:12

Uses bigger words than most articles I've read written by TRAs.

I'm assuming that the journalist is reading this. So, to you; I've thought a lot about why Britain is seen as being T*RF Island. I think it is because feminism has always been more organised than other countries and historically we have achieved so much more than other countries. Think maternity rights, abortion rights - Australia and the US where I have both lived are so so far behind in these areas. Think Mums returning to work after having a baby - our rights to request flexible working are assumed and it is the employer who has to provide a case as to why it is not acceptable. Think women's toilets - the first in the world to win these was England (and yes, men and some women hated us for this too). Think the right to vote - which country won this first?

This is feminism - you may hate us - but what you call 'transphobia' will be written in to history books as another fight against men who wish to abolish women's rights.

MrsMidClegs · 14/04/2021 12:12

@RoyalCorgi

From the article: "I was baffled to learn these feminists were finding each other on Mumsnet, a collection of message boards I’d previously turned to for advice on how to descale my dishwasher and associated with smug, bougie mums comparing high-end strollers and complaining about the neighbor’s dog eating their begonias. How wrong I was to underestimate Mumsnet."

Well, one sentence in there is correct.

What is 'bougie'?
PotholeHellhole · 14/04/2021 12:13

collection of message boards I’d previously turned to for advice on how to descale my dishwasher and associated with smug, bougie mums comparing high-end strollers and complaining about the neighbor’s dog eating their begonias

Good thing she didn't ask me. I don't even have a dishwasher. Grin

RoyalCorgi · 14/04/2021 12:16

This is feminism - you may hate us - but what you call 'transphobia' will be written in to history books as another fight against men who wish to abolish women's rights.

Absolutely. As with all these articles, there's a lot of handwringing and feigned horror about Terfs, transphobia, etc, but no attempt to engage with the arguments. It talks about stuff being "debunked" when it hasn't been (witness the number of attacks by trans women on women in women's toilets and other women's spaces, for example). As usual, the main tactic is to misrepresent our argument (pretending that we think women are defined by our biology) and discredit us by claiming that if we share any commonality with the American right, then we must be wrong.

Still, I think it's time for Feminism Chat to adopt Millwall FC fans' famous slogan: "No one likes us, we don't care."

CorvusPurpureus · 14/04/2021 12:21

A quick google suggests that 'bougie' is derived from 'bourgeois' & implies that one is aspirational.

Are begonias aspirational? 🧐

Waitwhat23 · 14/04/2021 12:39

I firmly believe that there should have been a culture of discussion from the start on how to equitably marry the two sets of rights of both women and trans people and a reasoned debate on how to deal with any conflicting issues. Women would have campaigned, would have fundraised, would have marched. We've got experience in this, as mentioned by pp (public toilets for women to get rid of the urinary leash for example).

However, the conversation started from a point of 'no debate', 'no platforming' and 'acceptance without question'. Any attempt to discuss any issues has been met with doxxing, rape threats, death threats, bullying out of employment. Even on here, the FWR board is constantly monitored and anything which is 'wrongspeak' is reported. I can't imagine there are many women from here who are going onto websites and message boards which have a pro trans slant and trying to police their language.

The claims that feminism is worrying, violent and aggressive is odd given that the threats of corrective rape for example are not coming from the GC side.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 12:53

Still, I think it's time for Feminism Chat to adopt Millwall FC fans' famous slogan: "No one likes us, we don't care."

What was particularly amusing was when Milwall FC caved to TRA pressure and cancelled Venice Allan's meeting, leading to it being held in the HoC instead. It was said that MN had "more balls than Millwall". Long may that continue.

YouNoob · 14/04/2021 13:16

I firmly believe that there should have been a culture of discussion from the start on how to equitably marry the two sets of rights of both women and trans people and a reasoned debate on how to deal with any conflicting issues.

That would have been the adult thing to do, yes. The problem comes when one side is about reasoned debate and the other side is talking about feelings. You cannot reason with feelings.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 13:19

The problem comes when one side is about reasoned debate and the other side is talking about feelings. You cannot reason with feelings.

I agree. But it also doesn't move them when you talk about feelings. Because women's feelings don't count.

MrsBobDylan · 14/04/2021 13:26

I'm pissed off some of you have a MN feminism badge Angry .

I really tried to read that article. The writer has a very jaunty way of saying not a lot, via many words. In that respect, it was fascinating.