Pregnant people?

[Trustisamust]

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc.
They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women.
I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?

Ignoring the profound levels of gaslighting and assumptions that women on here don't 'interact' with trans people in real life, what is being enacted here is clearly evidenced in the Denton's report:

Absolutely this. Plenty of us do interact with transpeople in our home and work lives. A huge amount of us are also in touch with young people, through our children and our work. Aside from a noisy minority of young people influenced by tik toks self appointed and not very bright educators, the majority of young people do in fact use the language that is correct for their biological sex.

@Biscuitsanddoombar

Women, women are the people most affected by the erasure of their words and spaces

And I suspect I was interacting with trans people before you were born. The unbelievable arrogance to assume trans people only existed in the last 10 years! The difference is that the TW I worked with were fully and completely aware they were male and didn’t expect the word woman to be redefined to include men

Okay that's your view and I beg to differ. As a woman myself I don't believe anything of mine is affected to rightfully include all women.

As a woman myself I don't believe anything of mine is affected to rightfully include all women.

I don't understand how that makes sense in the context of this thread. Please can you explain how pregnancy care affects transwomen? Surely this is about women and transmen?

ASugarr
You can call it gaslighting, I call it listening to those most affected.

But not listening to most of those affected.

The unbelievable arrogance to assume trans people only existed in the last 10 years!

I know. Two of the people in my close friendship groups way back in the 1980s would be defined as transgender today. One had fully transitioned, the other was considering it. Really we haven't been sitting around waiting for the grandiose youth of today to come and educate us on all matters trans, but our experience does mean we can see right through you.

@HermitsLife

As a woman myself I don't believe anything of mine is affected to rightfully include all women.

I don't understand how that makes sense in the context of this thread. Please can you explain how pregnancy care affects transwomen? Surely this is about women and transmen?

It hasn't got anything to do with transgender women so I don't understand your question.

@EastWestWhosBest

Incorrect because men can be pregnant as trans men are men. Not every adult human female is a woman. That is a fact.

This is some new usage of the word ‘fact’ that I was previously unaware of.

‘Fact’ like ‘Woman’ seems to have become a very er...flexible word .

Thanks. I do genuinely understand the concern, especially if you haven't interacted with transgender people in real life (which isn't anyone's fault, they make up such a small percentage that it isn't likely). As someone who works alongside the NHS I just want people to understand that these changes aren't made with no thought. A lot goes into these changes and there are serious reasons behind it. It is also why so many charities have free sexual health workers to help those in the situations mentioned (which thank you for bringing to my attention). The word woman itself isn't being erased. You are still fully entitled to call yourself a woman (obviously). However we do have to think of the vulnerable minority that we are struggling to seek help due to fear and misunderstanding. But I hope that at least for some of you I've been able to help 🤍

So, the number of trans people is so vanishingly small that I am unlikely to meet one in my daily life. So why are we putting such an enormous amount of effort into changing the entire suite of health education to suit them?

There are many groups of people who don't fit into average major groups. It is not normal practise to change the language that suits the majority to fit the very specific requirements of a tiny minority (by your definition).

The female people who have transitioned to identify as male, yet decide that they want to do the most unmanly humanly possible and are then able to cease their medication before they become infertile and unable to conceive. I think we have heard of three people who have done this in the entire country.

Does changing all of the health education literature to suit these three people seem a little disproportionate?

I'm a bit mystified by the suggestion that the men will object more to having their word erased so this will be done at a later date - how do you know that men will 'object more' - does that mean women were asked how they felt about it?

Normally, if you are updating an IT system with an amendment for a specific purpose you would do all related changes at the same time, otherwise it creates extra work do it in more than one stage.

Fact’ like ‘Woman’ seems to have become a very er...flexible word

Words like teacher and educator has become quite flexible these days too. Once people needed to have some level of qualification. These days a sense of superiority / feelings based on no facts whatsoever/ and persistence seems to be the main criteria.

And the minority is growing because of the acceptance.

Really? Nothing to do with the unobtainable images of women everywhere?
I know that if as a teen I could not only get out of having to be female in the way I looked and behaved but also that it would make me more interesting and I’d have a online group of cheer leaders I’d have been all over it.

That’s not to deny that many trans people are trans blah blah blah but I think that very little support is given to teens to explore how they feel.

So what do you mean by "Include all women?" Isn't it quite tranphobic to not include transmen and non binary females when talking about pregnancy?

This conversation is about pregnancy and provision of maternity care, why would that include transwomen?

@IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk

Thanks. I do genuinely understand the concern, especially if you haven't interacted with transgender people in real life (which isn't anyone's fault, they make up such a small percentage that it isn't likely). As someone who works alongside the NHS I just want people to understand that these changes aren't made with no thought. A lot goes into these changes and there are serious reasons behind it. It is also why so many charities have free sexual health workers to help those in the situations mentioned (which thank you for bringing to my attention). The word woman itself isn't being erased. You are still fully entitled to call yourself a woman (obviously). However we do have to think of the vulnerable minority that we are struggling to seek help due to fear and misunderstanding. But I hope that at least for some of you I've been able to help 🤍

So, the number of trans people is so vanishingly small that I am unlikely to meet one in my daily life. So why are we putting such an enormous amount of effort into changing the entire suite of health education to suit them?

There are many groups of people who don't fit into average major groups. It is not normal practise to change the language that suits the majority to fit the very specific requirements of a tiny minority (by your definition).

The female people who have transitioned to identify as male, yet decide that they want to do the most unmanly humanly possible and are then able to cease their medication before they become infertile and unable to conceive. I think we have heard of three people who have done this in the entire country.

Does changing all of the health education literature to suit these three people seem a little disproportionate?

I'm a bit mystified by the suggestion that the men will object more to having their word erased so this will be done at a later date - how do you know that men will 'object more' - does that mean women were asked how they felt about it?

Normally, if you are updating an IT system with an amendment for a specific purpose you would do all related changes at the same time, otherwise it creates extra work do it in more than one stage.

Very similar argument to what people said about allowing same sex marriage. It only affected a small minority of this country, people didn't want them to have the same marriage title because "Two men can't be a married couple". They used biology to deny their sex life and their relationships. Calling them predators, their sexuality a fetish and all sorts. Sound familiar. This isn't to say any of you are homophobic, but what you are essentially arguing is the exact same arguments made in the past. Transphobia is recycled homophobia.

@HermitsLife

So what do you mean by "Include all women?" Isn't it quite tranphobic to not include transmen and non binary females when talking about pregnancy?

In that context I wasn't exclusivly speaking about pregnancy. Yes it would be considered transphobic to not realise that it is not only women who get pregnant.

@EastWestWhosBest

And the minority is growing because of the acceptance.

Really? Nothing to do with the unobtainable images of women everywhere?
I know that if as a teen I could not only get out of having to be female in the way I looked and behaved but also that it would make me more interesting and I’d have a online group of cheer leaders I’d have been all over it.

That’s not to deny that many trans people are trans blah blah blah but I think that very little support is given to teens to explore how they feel.

Okay then how come not all women want to be men? Because all women are affected by that in some way, yet we all don't develop gender dysphoria. Actually only 1% or under even do? So I don't think that's the route cause.

Very similar argument to what people said about allowing same sex marriage. It only affected a small minority of this country, people didn't want them to have the same marriage title because "Two men can't be a married couple". They used biology to deny their sex life and their relationships. Calling them predators, their sexuality a fetish and all sorts. Sound familiar. This isn't to say any of you are homophobic, but what you are essentially arguing is the exact same arguments made in the past. Transphobia is recycled homophobia.

It’s not the same argument in the slightest.
Two same sex people getting married has zero impact on my life or anyone else’s.
Using ambiguous language in health care can and has caused deaths.

Okay then how come not all women want to be men?
Well it rather depends on what you mean by women doesn’t it.

@EastWestWhosBest

Very similar argument to what people said about allowing same sex marriage. It only affected a small minority of this country, people didn't want them to have the same marriage title because "Two men can't be a married couple". They used biology to deny their sex life and their relationships. Calling them predators, their sexuality a fetish and all sorts. Sound familiar. This isn't to say any of you are homophobic, but what you are essentially arguing is the exact same arguments made in the past. Transphobia is recycled homophobia.

It’s not the same argument in the slightest.
Two same sex people getting married has zero impact on my life or anyone else’s.
Using ambiguous language in health care can and has caused deaths.

Neither does transgender people being accepted for who they are! That's the irony!

@rabbitwoman

I do think the solution would be to frame it in second person language - for instance :

'if you are pregnant, your partner may come with you to scan appointments'

'if you have heavy periods you may use these products'

'when you have had your baby, your partner may come and visit'

'your prostate will need an exam every five years'

'you will not be able to play women's sports if you have a penis'

Etc.....

This just seems the easiest way to be inclusive of everyone the health need applies to and I can’t begin to understand why phrases like “pregnant people” “people with cervices” “birthing bodies” etc would be used instead.

I'm sorry for what you have been through. However cervical cancer isn't just a woman's issue. Transgender men (who are men) can also develop this

This is one of the most stupidest thing I have ever read. I'm beginning to have no hope for humanity.

@EastWestWhosBest

Okay then how come not all women want to be men? Well it rather depends on what you mean by women doesn’t it.

This^^ Great example of when we relax and use language naturally we ALL know what the word woman means.

Neither does transgender people being accepted for who they are! That's the irony!

Yes the ambiguity of language does impact people. Just because you don’t want to believe it does make it less real.
It has been pointed out countless times that ‘people with a cervix’ and other similar phrases excludes women with low levels of literacy, education, or who struggle with English.

especially if you haven't interacted with transgender people in real life (which isn't anyone's fault, they make up such a small percentage that it isn't likely).

Oh my. The arrogance.

I assure you, I have interacted with transgender people over a fairly long period. I will be honest, though - my own experiences have informed my opinions on these matters.

I’m sorry for what you have been through. However cervical cancer isn't just a woman's issue. Transgender men (who are men) can also develop this

This is one of the most stupidest thing I have ever read. I'm beginning to have no hope for humanity.

And this is coming from a sexual health “professional” who has unchaperoned access to young people in schools and sexual health clinics. One can only imagine what sort of advice a teen having (developmentally normal for that age) feelings of confusion over their identity would be given.....

@EdgeOfACoin

especially if you haven't interacted with transgender people in real life (which isn't anyone's fault, they make up such a small percentage that it isn't likely).

Oh my. The arrogance.

I assure you, I have interacted with transgender people over a fairly long period. I will be honest, though - my own experiences have informed my opinions on these matters.

No no no. We are just silly middle class mummies who sit around gossiping in our crochet circles. We never meet any actual trans people. We must wait for someone else to come an tell us the truth. Ideally someone young because there weren’t any trans people 20 years ago.