Pregnant people?

[Trustisamust]

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc.
They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women.
I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?

This feels like virtual violence - symbolic violence and the theft of my ability to articulate my herstory and who I am.

It's exactly that.

@rabbitwoman

I do think the solution would be to frame it in second person language - for instance :

'if you are pregnant, your partner may come with you to scan appointments'

'if you have heavy periods you may use these products'

'when you have had your baby, your partner may come and visit'

'your prostate will need an exam every five years'

'you will not be able to play women's sports if you have a penis'

Etc.....

As ASugarr says , isn't much medical paperwork written like that anyway?

I quite like it- the use of "you" personalises it and makes it sound more relevant -yes I know that's illogical as it's still talking to everyone but I think it might convey information better.

If periods, pregnancy, and birth aren't wholly female and therefore feminist issues, is the only real feminist issue to be of service to and supportive of men? Because that's what it sounds like some people would like us to believe.

This feels like virtual violence - symbolic violence and the theft of my ability to articulate my herstory and who I am.

It's exactly that. Moreover, it minimises all the crap women have to endure. How soon will it be before the 2 to 3 women murdered by a partner or ex partner per week in the UK becomes 2to 3 people. Erasing our ability to define ourselves is simply another way to minimise the rampant misogyny in our Society and another victory for the Patriarchy.

People are aware they have a prostate or cervix. Plus their medical records will state that

I would not be in the least surprised to learn that many people do not know they have a cervix or a prostate.

I agree with your concern OP. The issue is that the NHS appear to still be conflating sex with gender which various institutions have now stated the bleedin' obvious confirmed that is not helpful in a medical setting.

As we know, sex is immutable and determines many aspects of medical treatment. Any disconnect with biological reality in medicine introduces risk and potential danger to all patients.

Thankfully we are now seeing clear water between sex and gender - our helpful poster asugar has confirmed it themselves so there seems to be consensus on both sides of the debate.

We all know that 'gender' or 'gender identity' is not medically significant so we should not be removing a sex based term 'mother' 'pregnant woman' etc on the grounds that some people have a specific 'gender identity'.

Gender identity is not relevant to a person's sex and should not be allowed to cloud medical communication. The difficulty with using the term 'people' is that is creates confusion by including a group (males) to whom the message is not relevant.

I was going to suggest that they could use pregnant women and transmen/non binary but it occurs to me that there are many other gender identities other than these two. There appears to be no consensus on a 'master list' of gender identities so this runs the risk of being wrong or missing a gender identity.

It also doesn't address the issue that many gender identities seem to be non-sex specific so a person of either sex can claim a particular gender identity for example cloudgender. Then there is the problem of gender identities like pangender - which means that someone has more than four genders. Or multigender which is also more than one gender (although to avoid overlap with pangender, maybe less than 4? - who knows).

So that then leads me to wonder how the NHS can take gender into account at all in a sensible way. If they are trying to be fully inclusive, they can't realisitically list people with the gender identity of transman, but exclude other genders like pangender for example, but then pangender could be of either male or female sex.

In conclusion, I think we need to follow the science and say that as sex is the only key element for medicine, and confusion around that will introduce unacceptable risk for all, we need to retain our sex based terms.

Transmen know they are of the female sex. Acknowledging their sex is imperative for appropriate and safe medical treatment. Their gender identity is not relevant in medical situations so for their safety and for the safety of everyone else we need to stick to absolute clarity on male and female.

Obviously on a 1-1 basis, transpeople can request to be addressed in the manner that makes them feel comfortable but we need to maintain the appropriate words for the majority of the population.

www.safeguardinginschools.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/List-of-Gender-Identities-1.pdf

Well said IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk

If we compare

The number of transmen who don’t know their sex

With the number of women who

Don’t have the maths skills or population knowledge to understand their chances of pregnancy based on the information on the NHS website (we also don’t know if the word “people” means all people or just women of childbearing age).

And/or

Don’t know what a cervix is or that they have one

And the number of men (not transmen) who will need know their chances of becoming pregnant (0) and be catered for by maternity services (also 0).

It is obvious that woman centred language is appropriate for maternity and gynaecology services and information whilst personalised care means that everyone’s individual needs can be taken into account and catered for on an individual basis.

@StrangeLookingParasite

And remember, gender and sex aren't the same thing. Woman is a gender term

Who exactly do you think you are? I tolerate being lectured to only by people I think actually know more than me.

I just looked up cervical cancer screening and prostate cancer screening on the NHS.
Here is what I found.

I’m happy with the wording in the cervical screening but why is the same wording not being used in the prostate screening?

these changes don't change anything for cis people.

It's these mysterious cis people again. Most of the people on this thread don't identify as "cis" Asugar, so it's strange that you keep bringing up what these "cis" people do?

Cis men can't. But not all women can either. Even cis women.

What about the other women like most of us here who aren't either transgender or "cis"? The ones you acknowledge exist?

I only hope lurkers are reading and learning from this exchange.

Take heart, they do. They get to see all the genderists' arguments in all their magnificence. And the responses from the intelligent, well informed posters on MN. And make up their own mind. There's a reason TRAs and their supporters have called it a "radicalisation portal" and come here to "educate" us. And it just creates more sunlight.

@EastWestWhosBest Yes, that's very similar to the question I asked and I agree.

Why is it one rule for one and not the other?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

these changes don't change anything for cis people.

It's these mysterious cis people again. Most of the people on this thread don't identify as "cis" Asugar, so it's strange that you keep bringing up what these "cis" people do?

Okay that's cool but I am cisgender and many people out there are.

@EastWestWhosBest

I just looked up cervical cancer screening and prostate cancer screening on the NHS. Here is what I found.

I’m happy with the wording in the cervical screening but why is the same wording not being used in the prostate screening?

It will change overtime. Not everything had an immediate change due to public outrage (as we've seen on here). The NHS are aware that men are going to take it even worse than women so it's a graduate change being made. For young people all the language has been changed for a while (around a year or so), now changes in the female categories are being made and finally the male categories.

Well thank you for confirming that Asugarr. We sometimes get posters dropping by to tell us we're all conspiracy nutcases so very helpful to hear otherwise.

@Floisme

Well thank you for confirming that Asugarr. We sometimes get posters dropping by to tell us we're all conspiracy nutcases so very helpful to hear otherwise.

Thanks. I do genuinely understand the concern, especially if you haven't interacted with transgender people in real life (which isn't anyone's fault, they make up such a small percentage that it isn't likely). As someone who works alongside the NHS I just want people to understand that these changes aren't made with no thought. A lot goes into these changes and there are serious reasons behind it. It is also why so many charities have free sexual health workers to help those in the situations mentioned (which thank you for bringing to my attention). The word woman itself isn't being erased. You are still fully entitled to call yourself a woman (obviously). However we do have to think of the vulnerable minority that we are struggling to seek help due to fear and misunderstanding. But I hope that at least for some of you I've been able to help 🤍

especially if you haven't interacted with transgender people in real life (which isn't anyone's fault, they make up such a small percentage that it isn't likely).

You see I have a young trans person in my family. I’ve seen what it does to a person. I also see how that minority is growing at an alarming rate.

For young people all the language has been changed for a while

My daughter is 15. She uses the terms ‘woman/man/girl/boy’. She would say ‘pregnant woman’ rather than ‘pregnant person’ and ‘woman’ instead of ‘person with a cervix’. She also doesn’t use ‘cis’ and I’ve not heard any of her friends use it either.

Not all young people are gleefully jumping on this bandwagon.

Incidentally, DD and her friends are very ‘woke’. Several of them are gay; all are very aware of and empathetic to marginalised people.

I used to volunteer with new mums. As part of our training we visited the local maternity unit. The midwife taking us round told us how important it was to use empowering language so they used woman/women and not lady. What has changed for women in the last 3 years that means they no longer benefit from that empowering language?

@EastWestWhosBest

especially if you haven't interacted with transgender people in real life (which isn't anyone's fault, they make up such a small percentage that it isn't likely).

You see I have a young trans person in my family. I’ve seen what it does to a person. I also see how that minority is growing at an alarming rate.

As do I. I've not only got numerous transgender friends but I have a transgender sibling. And the minority is growing because of the acceptance. Just like fact there are more lesbians and gays out there today.

Ignoring the profound levels of gaslighting and assumptions that women on here don't 'interact' with trans people in real life, what is being enacted here is clearly evidenced in the Denton's report:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists

@ThomasPenman

I used to volunteer with new mums. As part of our training we visited the local maternity unit. The midwife taking us round told us how important it was to use empowering language so they used woman/women and not lady. What has changed for women in the last 3 years that means they no longer benefit from that empowering language?

I can only think that the empowerment of women is upsetting for some “people”.

[quote persistentwoman]Ignoring the profound levels of gaslighting and assumptions that women on here don't 'interact' with trans people in real life, what is being enacted here is clearly evidenced in the Denton's report:

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-document-that-reveals-the-remarkable-tactics-of-trans-lobbyists[/quote]
You can call it gaslighting, I call it listening to those most affected.

Women, women are the people most affected by the erasure of their words and spaces

And I suspect I was interacting with trans people before you were born. The unbelievable arrogance to assume trans people only existed in the last 10 years! The difference is that the TW I worked with were fully and completely aware they were male and didn’t expect the word woman to be redefined to include men