Pregnant people?

[Trustisamust]

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc.
They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women.
I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?

I don't wear women's clothes, etc)

Interesting! What are "women's clothes"? How are any clothes not "women's clothes" if you, a woman, wear them?

It's not that I disagree with the narrative. But surely if cisgender can't be used then transgender shouldn't be used. Especially by those who aren't trans.

That's a bizarre statement. People are allowed to talk about transgender issues. Even if they are not transgender. Equally, you can identify as cisgender if you wish. And call yourself that. But you don't get to constantly call other people cisgender when they have asked you not to; because that's not how they identify. Misgendering is against talk guidelines. It's also really disrespectful. For someone who places a lot of emphasis on respect for themselves, it's strange that you don't want to offer that back to people who don't agree with your world views. Why is that I wonder...

@ASugarr

They literally are. Cisgender just means you are not transgender. It means that you relate more to your biological sex and surround any gender (like pronouns, title and more) around your sex. I get that many of you don't identify as cisgender but that's all it means. Transgender means you don't alline your gender with the stereotype of your sex. Meaning you don't use the typical pronouns and all that link with your sex. Gender is fluent and many people don't care what they've got biologically and don't wish to determine who they are around that.

Aligning with your sex means you are a man or a woman.

Having a feeling or notion that you don't align with your sex and want to live your life as though you are the opposite sex, means you are transgender, or what used to be called (until not that long ago) transsexual.

There shouldn't be an issue with being known as a man or a woman or a transsexual man or transsexual woman. This new insistence that transsexual women are in fact women and transsexual men are in fact men, is what is currently muddying the waters.

I hope over the next few years/decades we unmuddy the waters and get back to clear thinking. We're in a transition period where people work this stuff out and I firmly believe it won't end up where you think it will end up @ASugarr.

Here's hoping.

🦡🌈🤍

But not everyone who gives birth is a mother

Yes, everyone who gives birth is a mother. Because that is simply the name for a female person or animal who gestates a child and gives birth. The male person who provides the sperm is a father. All basic stuff.

@ASugarr maybe you need to find out what an appeal to authority means, as you rather remarkably managed to do it again whilst responding to my point about it.

You said "Don't agree with me personally. That's fine. They don't necessarily have to take what I say as truth for themselves, but as truth as to why the NHS have done this and all"

I never agree with anyone "personally". I agree with them if they have explained their points clearly and I agree with the definition of their terms and the argument that they have put forward, because I cannot identify any error or counter point to what they are saying.

You again have claimed the NHS as an authority to "prove" as true what you are saying. Despite the fact that several people have pointed out that the one piece of NHS evidence you have provided does not support what you are saying. You are simply asking us to trust you that your special knowledge of the NHS means you should be trusted as telling the truth. It's a totally invalid way to try to persuade anyone of what you're saying.

But surely if cisgender can't be used then transgender shouldn't be used. Especially by those who aren't trans.
So if a woman is an adult human female and I can't call a transwomen a transgender woman , must I then call them a man as they are an adult human male?

No it's not. Many people typically think you have to be feminine to be a woman or be female. Which is incorrect. You can be a woman and be male. You can be a woman and be masculine. There's no rules as to how to be a man or woman.

No rules, no criteria, no meaning.

So not possible to write laws about. You cannot collect statistics about something that has no meaning. You can't claim protection from discrimination based on something that has no meaning. You can't get healthcare based on something meaningless. How entitled can you be to decide a group of people has no right to a word and that word should become meaningless so that that group becomes invisible in law, healthcare and statistics. Astounding.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But not everyone who gives birth is a mother

Yes, everyone who gives birth is a mother. Because that is simply the name for a female person or animal who gestates a child and gives birth. The male person who provides the sperm is a father. All basic stuff.

Not everyone who gives birth is a mother. Either they could be a surrogate or (like my mother) they lost the right to be a mother.

Although I'm certainly not a very feminine woman

@ASugarr, your Twitter page @AnxietySugar_ is public and has photos of you there for all to see. You are very stereotypically feminine.

The point you are missing, that so many posters are trying to guide you to, is that everything you assert all comes back to vague notions and feelings. This is no basis for language, legislation, for society to function on.

People feel all sorts of wacky things. My schizophrenic family member feels like she's in a relationship with a non-existent person- it doesn't make it so.

I do not understand the reluctance to campaign for awareness of trans issues without saying that transwomen are women and transmen are men.

Yes, everyone who gives birth is a mother.

The recent bill and the birth certificate case established that it's a gender neutral, sex specific term for the person who has given birth. Every child has a birth mother.

It is also a gendered term relating to a person who parents a child, as in adoptive, foster and step mothers.

It is also a gendered term relating to a person who parents a child, as in adoptive, foster and step mothers.

Yes, not every mother gives birth, but everyone who gives birth is a mother.

@AssassinatedBeauty

You of course can use "cisgender" to refer to yourself and other people who do identify with the "gender identity" that they feel correlates with their sex.

What you shouldn't be doing is referring to people who have specifically told you they are not "cis" as "cisgender", nor should you be assuming that everyone who isn't transgender has a belief in gender identity and is therefore "cisgender".

For example. I don't have any belief in the concept of gender identity and therefore reject the label you want to place on me. It is, however, a simple fact about me that I am an adult human female, so I am a member of the category of "woman".

Cool. That's fine. However don't then judge those who are transgender for being who they are. If you don't want judgment (which I totally understand) then you can't judge others for how they identify themselves.

Not everyone who gives birth is a mother. Either they could be a surrogate or (like my mother) they lost the right to be a mother.

Yes, everyone who gives birth is a mother. It's simply the name we give to the female person who gestates and gives birth.

A surrogate mother is not a test tube or an incubator. This idea is really quite misogynistic.

@transbadger

Although I'm certainly not a very feminine woman

@ASugarr, your Twitter page @AnxietySugar_ is public and has photos of you there for all to see. You are very stereotypically feminine.

The point you are missing, that so many posters are trying to guide you to, is that everything you assert all comes back to vague notions and feelings. This is no basis for language, legislation, for society to function on.

People feel all sorts of wacky things. My schizophrenic family member feels like she's in a relationship with a non-existent person- it doesn't make it so.

I do not understand the reluctance to campaign for awareness of trans issues without saying that transwomen are women and transmen are men.

Okay what makes me appear stereotypically female? Make up? Make up isn't gendered. Anyone can wear it? Long hair? Can only women have long hair? When I say I'm not womanly it means I don't follow the norms of wearing women's clothes (the clothes labeled for women). I don't always appear very female and that's fine. Bringing mental illness into this isn't right by the way.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Not everyone who gives birth is a mother. Either they could be a surrogate or (like my mother) they lost the right to be a mother.

Yes, everyone who gives birth is a mother. It's simply the name we give to the female person who gestates and gives birth.

A surrogate mother is not a test tube or an incubator. This idea is really quite misogynistic.

The woman who gave birth to me isn't. And many others agree. Okay if that's your view of being a surrogate then fine but that doesn't change the mind of those who are. I wouldn't mind doing it if I could.

Yes, everyone who gives birth is a mother. Because that is simply the name for a female person or animal who gestates a child and gives birth.

More importantly this is the legal definition. The British courts, which automatically (and rightly) protect the rights, interests and wellbeing of the child, have definitively preserved this definition. As a mother who has used assisted conception this distinction becomes incredibly important for the child who is deemed to have the right to know who its parents (and gamete donors) are.

It's not about adults' need for validation, but children's need to know their origins. Changing this would open a terrible can of worms from that perspective and probably necessitate a change in the Children Act. These matters are not straightforward.

I reject 'Cis' because my gender is not the 'same' as my sex. I don't accept that this is a possibility, given that gender is a set of other people's conventions and assumptions about how a female should think, dress and behave.

I've rejected those constraints since reaching adulthood. I'm not about to embrace them now.

like my mother) they lost the right to be a mother

That's sad. But note how you had to use the word "mother" to describe her? Because your mother is your mother. It's not something that can be removed from her. She just is, whatever has been your relationship with her. "Mother" isn't a value judgement, it's a neutral term.

Yes. So basically clothing, make etc is irrelevant so them why do so many accounts start with " she liked to play with dolls and wear dresses"

So if gender expression doesn't determine gender what does and how is anyone to even know they have one

But not everyone who gives birth is a mother

Incorrect. Everyone who does give birth is a mother. You can thank Freddy McConnell for getting that established in law.

Okay if that's your view of being a surrogate then fine but that doesn't change the mind of those who are.

Yes, it is my view, and your view doesn't change my mind, so there we go.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

like my mother) they lost the right to be a mother

That's sad. But note how you had to use the word "mother" to describe her? Because your mother is your mother. It's not something that can be removed from her. She just is, whatever has been your relationship with her. "Mother" isn't a value judgement, it's a neutral term.

Well I usually just call her by name but I don't wish to. Or I call her just a bitch. So. I can go by bitch if that's better? Or person who gave birth to me? Is that better?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

like my mother) they lost the right to be a mother

That's sad. But note how you had to use the word "mother" to describe her? Because your mother is your mother. It's not something that can be removed from her. She just is, whatever has been your relationship with her. "Mother" isn't a value judgement, it's a neutral term.

And she is not and never will be.

She is what she is regardless of what you choose to call her. You can call her whatever you want, obviously.

@ASugarr what is this "judgement" business suddenly? None of this is about being judgemental. Is calling someone "cisgender" or "transgender" a judgement about them??

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Okay if that's your view of being a surrogate then fine but that doesn't change the mind of those who are.

Yes, it is my view, and your view doesn't change my mind, so there we go.

Okay cool.