Pregnant people?

[Trustisamust]

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc.
They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women.
I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?

Yeah it would be useful for you all considering you are arguing with scientists and doctors on this. If you don't agree then cool don't agree, but then don't go complaining about it and insulting people when they try to explain it to you.

Arguing? I'm not. We are talking and debating about what a biological woman is, I'll do that with anyone and my opinion is as valid any anyone else's.

My 'qualification' is that I am a biological XY woman and my DNA says so, too. If a 'doctor' or 'scientist' can't see that, well I guess that is an ideological issue they will have to work through.

@transbadger

If I were to make a bingo card for this thread and similar others from the past couple of weeks it would contain:

I work with medical professionals.

I work in education.

My job...
Incorrect.
No.
Cis women.
I'm trying to educate you.
I'm not here to educate you.
I could tell you but you won't listen anyway.
I'm off to work now.
🤍

I mean do I need to say more about insulting and just being rude to me? Like what's the point in engaging in a healthy debate and discussion when this is all people do. Let alone with an offensive username as it is.

AssassinatedBeauty

When poster's are asked across several threads on different topics to expand on why they support an assertion, only to have their job title stated and no evidence provided, it sets a pattern for anyone reading across those threads. It also then completely undermines the relevance/credibility any statements being made now and in the future. Poster then leaves the thread making complaints about the forum users while never actually having provided any of their declared evidence.

There are a growing number of threads where this has happened.

It is the difference between twitter interactions where there is a very short attention span and a board such as this filled with knowledgable people who point out hypocrisy when they see it and expect evidenced discussion where evidence or authority has been stated. Obviously, within the guidelines.

The repetition is annoying at first, then it actually becomes a live streamed example of just how lacking in logic, evidence and credibility arguments driven by mantras are.

What discussion do you feel can actually take place when you offer no definition of terms needed to have it.

@Whatwouldscullydo

The eternal (seemingly unanswerable) question still stands. If woman is just an identity what does it mean? If a person 'identifies as a woman' what are they identifying as?

And that of course still doesn't answer why ultra sounds before birth are deemed accurate enough to determine whether or not someone keeps a baby with regards to sex selective abortion, why it's enough to throw the baby away at birth, or how they determine the sex in countries where there isn't money or time to have any kind.of gender expression. They don't have food let alone a pink bow to.put in their hair.

At what point does sex become meaningless. Why is there zero education campaign in these countries to warn them that some of these female babies might in fact be boys?

Why indeed?

I would like an answer to this too Scully!

@Helleofabore

AssassinatedBeauty

When poster's are asked across several threads on different topics to expand on why they support an assertion, only to have their job title stated and no evidence provided, it sets a pattern for anyone reading across those threads. It also then completely undermines the relevance/credibility any statements being made now and in the future. Poster then leaves the thread making complaints about the forum users while never actually having provided any of their declared evidence.

There are a growing number of threads where this has happened.

It is the difference between twitter interactions where there is a very short attention span and a board such as this filled with knowledgable people who point out hypocrisy when they see it and expect evidenced discussion where evidence or authority has been stated. Obviously, within the guidelines.

The repetition is annoying at first, then it actually becomes a live streamed example of just how lacking in logic, evidence and credibility arguments driven by mantras are.

No one is trying to claim authority. If anything others have to me as they just call me young, tell me I'll learn one day and more. When in reality I know. Why does being young change anything? Do you see where the constant assertion from me feels necessary when I'm just disregarded and disrespected? Just because people "feel" differently?. I'm not here to change everyone's opinion. It's clear that over text it will never happen, but I'm giving a voice to the community you all seeming feel the need to comment on. Which isn't okay.

Autistic people became people with autism.

The majority of autistic people prefer not to be called ‘people with autism’, as it suggests autism is something you have rather than a fundamental part of who you are.

Hopefully MumsNet will ban the use of the word transgender so you all can stop making transphobic and inappropriate threads that lead to no good.

It's one word, it will make no difference whatsoever.

Lead to no good? Funny.

I’m not a person with autism.
I’m an autistic woman. And yes the woman part matters. There are all sorts of barriers to girls and women being diagnosed because all the research and screening is designed around boys and men.

@ASugarr you have very specifically, many times, made your argument using an appeal to authority. First, you referenced yourself as an authority, and then referred to the authority of unnamed "doctors and scientists" and claimed they agreed with you, with no evidence. You are asking people to take what you are stating as truth without any ability to even explain your terms and your meaning.

No one is trying to claim authority.

You have written repeatedly "this is what the NHS thinks". Considering the scale and complexity of the NHS its preposterous to claim it "thinks" anything, there's a million employees. You might at a push be able to claim a tiny comms team somewhere think something but that's the best you could say. But you speak with no knowledge at all about how organisations and people work or you wouldn't say such black and white things.

I'm not here to change everyone's opinion.

But you do want to stop everyone posting.

It's clear that over text it will never happen, but I'm giving a voice to the community you all seeming feel the need to comment on. Which isn't okay.

There things people must not comment on? There isn't.

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

Well I don't like to think being pregnant as a womanly thing as (since you are all claiming being a woman is a sex term when it isn't) it is insulting to women who can't give birth or get pregnant. That's why we don't use gendered language because it isn't just to help transgender people. Trust me.

I am infertile because my female reproductive system isn't doing what it's designed to do. Don't drag infertile women in to shore up your arguments. Infertile women are still women.

Yes, that is a bogus argument. I can't have kids either but I am still a biological woman/female/XX through and through.

@ASugarr

The pattern of your posting is predictable now and ridiculous. I don't see any evidence that you know how to have a "healthy" debate. You are out of your depth on this forum where users have discussed these topics for many years before you came along. You appeal to authority constantly (your own, that of unnamed scientists and doctors, the monolithic "NHS") and then you deny that you do this.

There is no evidence based research to suggest that a woman is anything other than an adult human female. Now, if you were to discuss your beliefs and opinions on the basis of how people feel and what things they would like to happen then you might get somewhere. But you cannot state biological falsehoods and wish them to become truths.

The majority, if not all, regular posters on these boards want trans people to have all the human rights afforded to them that all people have. I see no evidence that this is not already the case. What we don't want to see is an erosion of womanhood, women's rights and women's spaces. There is evidence that this is happening.

This is a feminist board and women are here to discuss how anything that might impact our rights and our wellbeing can be tackled. This is the basis for the pushback against certain aspects of trans ideology.

You seem unable to meet us halfway on this as you blindly assert that trans women are women, and therefore we will never be able to have a discussion about any of this.

If you could meet us on the assertion that trans women are trans women then we'd be able to talk about how to protect their interests and women's interests. I'm not sure this will happen however, as you seem to be hell bent on convincing us that trans women are indeed women. It's not enough that they simply are what they are and are respected and treated kindly as such- no, we have to give up our identity to include them. Where else would this ever happen?

As it stands, we go round in circles.

It's good that you have a job that allows you so much time to chat on here after you say you're away to work, as it means that perhaps you'll be able to respond this and we'll start to get somewhere.

Calling women women is insulting to women who can't get pregnant?

Did a man tell you to say that @ASugarr? Men have told you to say all of this, if only you could realise this.

No one is trying to claim authority.

You keep telling us you are literally a health expert.

If anything others have to me as they just call me young, tell me I'll learn one day and more. When in reality I know. Why does being young change anything?

It doesn't change anything. My kids are really young. They are good at critical thinking. People are just hoping for your sake that these skills will come for you in time. Because at the moment you sound like a sales rep.

Do you see where the constant assertion from me feels necessary when I'm just disregarded and disrespected?

Do you see why people get annoyed when you deliberately throw around the cis word and do not acknowledge that hardly anyone here is cis. Aside from you as you keep reminding us.

Just because people "feel" differently?.
We feel differently. You don't respect that.

I'm not here to change everyone's opinion.

Incorrect

It's clear that over text it will never happen, but I'm giving a voice to the community you all seeming feel the need to comment on.

Your voice is falling a bit flat though as you keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Maybe try and explore the questions in a little more depth?

Which isn't okay.

Why not. Don't you like us?

How many threads have you derailed and finally managed to get deleted now asugar. I can think of at least three. I bet there's more. That's quite a record isn't it? Is that your purpose? To keep spamming the board and upsetting people and then reporting back to Twitter. It doesn't feel like you post in good faith here at all. Everyone is welcome to post here as far as I can see. But what you're doing is not ok either.

If anything others have to me as they just call me young, tell me I'll learn one day and more.

From reading your twitterfeed, I don't think you are as young as some posters here do. Not that it matters. Anyone who voices their opinions on this forum should be treated as an adult regardless.

Do you see where the constant assertion from me feels necessary when I'm just disregarded and disrespected?

Respect is earned. I think I have said this now over several threads and right from the very beginning. Right from the very first threads where you stated your intentions (and then tried to tell us it was sarcasm, then followed through anyway). I am not sure what you expected, but your first interactions with many of us was on those threads. Threads that have been deleted, otherwise I would encourage you to refresh your memory having some hindsight.

I'm not here to change everyone's opinion.

And yet, your recent interactions with MNTowers would indicate that you are definitely aiming to control other's speech and thinking.

I'm giving a voice to the community you all seeming feel the need to comment on.

Sure. Many of us have children, siblings or spouses who are part of, or are affected by the theories supported by 'the community'. You seem to think that no one has direct experience of their own.

You also are completely ignoring that we, as women, believe that there is significant areas of conflicts between the demands of that community you are 'giving a voice to', and our own needs and that of all women. Including our mother's and our daughters. We don't centre the needs of the individual or of a small group of people unless it reflects the needs for the majority as well. Consider it, yes. Centre it, no.

You have completely ignored that many of us have a depth of experience in the areas that we do discuss including education, employment rights, communication along with the doctors and scientists. And you very clearly ignore the many safeguarding specialists that are also on this board.

I learn from all these women everyday because there is actually so much expertise here, yet many posters can't see it.

So, I for one, will keep commenting on the conflicts of rights where I see it. Your comment 'you all seeming feel the need to comment on' shows clearly your belief that you do not acknowledge that we even have a right to discuss these conflicts. Which has shown in your posts all along and is probably why you find so many people disagree with your posts. Particularly since you then cannot support your assertions with evidence that is robust enough to stand up to being pulled apart. (kind of like the 'porn is fun' posts on that thread about a video that was published to communicate the negative aspects of porn consumption for those under 18).

Which isn't okay.

No. What isn't okay is any attempt to silence women discussing the interpretation of their rights and how other group's rights interact with them.

Posting on internet boards and twitter is not the same as being a healthcare professional.

Hope that clears that up.

@ASugarr
The "official NHS definitions" you keep linking to are not what you keep saying they are

They are a CROWDSOURCED writing style guide for the NHS, not a list of clinical definitions
(re crowdsourced, it's a github open collaboration document with invitations to get involved)

And where you keep saying it defines man and woman as gender terms it doesn't

In the section about gender terms it says:
Someone may see themselves as a man, a woman

That's it, it makes no comment about whether those terms are sex terms or gender terms. And I know you are parsing it to read as if it's saying those are strictly gender terms but it's very disingenuous to present that as a solid undeniable reading

In fact, the document itself gives a fairly strong warning at the start of the Sex, Gender and Sexuality section that these are not fixed definitions and should vary depending on set and setting

I personally see no issue. The hospital I had my baby in used this kind of language for everything and even had a video on the TV in the waiting room with a trans man using their services. All the leaflets said pregnant people and they/them rather than she/her for the person carrying the child.
It didn't make my care any less but it was nice to imagine a trans person walking in there feeling nervous and seeing they were included in the information available.
When my son was born the midwife said she had started to refer to everyone as "babys parent" rather than mum or dad.
The kids we're raising are going to be the generations that find this normal, they're gonna be the ones to be more accepting and inclusive. Why not get on board now rather than be another generation that fights against the youngs views? It never works. Progress won't stop to spare our feelings when it's to make a better world for everyone to feel accepted and included..

Progress won't stop to spare our feelings when it's to make a better world for everyone to feel accepted and included

Thing is you can't fix problems you cabt see. For instance black.women.are 5 times more likely to die during child birth. Womens healthcare is very often dire. We are not taken seriously.

If you remove who things are happening to and you have random things happening to.random.people and you apparently cant figure out who's at risk or who it's affecting because uts happening to undefinable people then how.do we solve anything?

We aren't solving problems we are just removing the language to discuss them.

That is not.progressive.

Why not get on board now rather than be another generation that fights against the youngs views? It never works.

Why would I get on board with a movement that erases the word woman and the safeguards that go alongside that? There's room for women and transmen in this. Women would like to be correctly identified as what they are. It's not just the older generations that think this. Many young women also do not want the word erased. You seem to think all young people want this. They absolutely do not. This is not an old against young movement
This is about a noisy minority from across all the generations who are seeking to remove and refine what woman are. The answer is no.

Progress won't stop to spare our feelings when it's to make a better world for everyone to feel accepted and included..

Sounds like you're redefining the meaning of progress. This isn't progress. At least, it's not for women. It's a backward step for women. And it's not a better world when over half the people in it (women) are not accepted or included, aside from on poor terms that others have decided for them. So the answer is still no.

Perhaps you can answer the questions put to Asugar, dunderblue? Such as:

If woman is just an identity what does it mean?

If a person 'identifies as a woman' what are they identifying as?

What should be the name for an adult female of the human species?

Where did the woman "gender identity" originate from and why does it correlate more often with females?

Can you define "woman" without using the word "woman" as part of the definition?

Can you define woman without referring to sexist stereotypes?

Also, what do I as a woman have in common with an MTF trans person that I don't also have in common with men?

@Dunderblue presumably when they wanted to refer to the mother in respect to her post natal treatment they then had to call her "baby's birthing parent"?