Pregnant people?

[Trustisamust]

So our local NHS Trust have finally updated their guidance re allowing partners to attend pregnancy scans etc.
They now refer to pregnant people, not pregnant women.
I don't know if I am being unreasonable here but this does not sit comfortably with me?

@Whatwouldscullydo

So what links a feminine woman to masculine one?

Both identifying as being a woman. Pretty simple.

We have done ourselves and have never found an answer to the questions.

Hence why we know.you don't have one

I feel for ASugarr here.

So many people monitoring this board and looking for posts to report, yet nobody is coming to lend a hand with some of these questions.

It's not fun being the only person facing an onslaught of challenging questions. I hope someone comes to give you a bit of support soon, ASugarr.

What's a woman identity

No. Man doesn't mean masculine. Woman doesn't mean feminine. You can be masculine and be a woman and vice versa

ASugarr - you just said it did.

So we're back to - define 'woman gender identity '. Responses of 'I'm not going to tell you because you don't listen' don't cut it - you can't know we won't listen unless you define your terms.

@EdgeOfACoin

I feel for ASugarr here.

So many people monitoring this board and looking for posts to report, yet nobody is coming to lend a hand with some of these questions.

It's not fun being the only person facing an onslaught of challenging questions. I hope someone comes to give you a bit of support soon, ASugarr.

Thanks. It would be nice for more cis women to feel comfortable discussing this and being a trans ally but as you can imagine it isn't easy when you are faced with situations like this. Obviously my job requires me to be in these positions a lot anyway so it's doesn't phase me as much, however that isn't the case for others and it's a lot. I've got to return to work. I don't think I'll be continuing on with this thread specifically as many of the extra questions require a lot of explaining that isn't easy to do through text. If I find any material like a video or something that better explains all of this later then I'll be sure to pop it on as I don't think my words alone can explain any of this well enough, plus I do have to be careful what I say due to the nature of my works policies. But have a good monday all 🤍

See you on the next one @ASugarr

🦡🌈🤍

Understood. That is what transgender people are fighting for in terms of their rights as trans healthcare has become so unaccessable it means getting a GRA can take years and years, which may result into self ID, which not everyone wants to resort to. However with better equality under the equality act for transgender people that may be avoided. It's kinda too much to explain in a post like this but I hope that makes some sort of sense.

What on earth are you talking about now?

The Equality Act 2010 says that SEX is a protected characteristic. Section 11 says:

Sex

In relation to the protected characteristic of sex —

(a) a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or to a woman;

(b) a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons of the same sex.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/11

Section 212 provides guidance on how terms in the Act should be interpreted. It says:

“man” means a male of any age;

... and also:

“woman” means a female of any age.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/212

So in UK law, 'man' and 'woman' are sex terms, not gender.

Does that help?

This situation has only occurred because there's no definition of terms.

How can we "pick a side" when one side will not part with vital information. The definition of a woman gender identity akd a man.gender ID is key to this whole thing.

You are asking us to take.some.leap of faith and agree to something we don't know ajd you won't tell us

Man and woman are gender identity terms.

No. They are just words to describe adult males and females of the human species. Like a peahen or a mare. It's really quite simple.

As pp have said, what is the word for a female human if not a woman? Where did this mysterious gender identity originate from and why does it correlate with more females than males?

Thanks. It would be nice for more cis women to feel comfortable discussing this and being a trans ally

Again with these "cis" women. You are the only self declared "cis woman" on the thread and you have acknowledged that most women on FWR are not "cis", so why do you keep bringing up whether "cis women" do this and that?

It surprises me that someone who works with young people, talking about this very topic is unable to explain what they mean in simple terms. What do they do if one of the young people they deal with asks them a question about one of the claims that are stated as fact? Refuse to respond? Call them a bigot/transphobe? Baffling.

Presumably they would be told the answer ?

But then they might tell their parents or friends and that might end up on.here or reddit or net mums etc so either it doesn't exist or they have to sign a non disclosure document?

Well I don't like to think being pregnant as a womanly thing as (since you are all claiming being a woman is a sex term when it isn't) it is insulting to women who can't give birth or get pregnant. That's why we don't use gendered language because it isn't just to help transgender people. Trust me.

I am infertile because my female reproductive system isn't doing what it's designed to do. Don't drag infertile women in to shore up your arguments. Infertile women are still women.

@ASugarr Man and woman are gender identity terms. No they aren’t. Man is the word for adult human male. Woman is the word for adult human female. They are words based on irrefutable biological fact. You are getting exasperated because women are defending the use of the word woman to mean adult human female when you would like it to apply also to adult human males who experience a female gender identity - even though you are unable to describe what such a gender identity might encompass.

If the word ‘woman’ can also be applied to adult human males it leaves a gap in our vocabulary to describe the thing that women would like ‘woman’ to describe. Likewise, if the words ‘person’ and ‘people’ are to be used to apply specifically to one section of the human population where it is absolutely essential the correct biology is applied (such as medical provision) there is going to be huge confusion, and probably offence, even if not intended, caused too.

If it helps, I am a scientist by training, and after gaining a Life Sciences degree worked in the field of medicine for 5 years before my current profession, in which I also need to be able to use the words man, woman, girl and boy to describe people according to their sex in emergency situations.

Being kind, (because that’s what we are supposed to be, isn’t it?) I would suggest that if you come onto a forum primarily for women and start arguing against biological facts and taking a stand against women who are defending the right to describe themselves in the way they choose, you are going to find yourself in the minority. No one wants to be unkind, but nor do we want to be rendered irrelevant, invisible or erased completely. Our biology, WOMEN’S biology, and it’s needs that are what make us different to men and transwomen, make it essential to have a word that applies to us. That word has always been ‘woman’ and we are fighting to defend it against people like you who use doublespeak to say men can be female and women can be male. No, they can’t. It is wishful thinking but Not Their Word.

Does anyone know when all the forms that said sex: male or female changed to gender?

I remember kids sniggering in primary school at the question. But I’m 50. There must be a point where people under a certain age always got that question as gender.

I wonder if that impacts people’s understanding of the difference.

@AssassinatedBeauty

It surprises me that someone who works with young people, talking about this very topic is unable to explain what they mean in simple terms. What do they do if one of the young people they deal with asks them a question about one of the claims that are stated as fact? Refuse to respond? Call them a bigot/transphobe? Baffling.

I think AssassinatedBeauty that the poster is used to being in a situation where people will simply believe what they are told.

Some posters often use empty appeals to authority I have noticed. If you are lucky you will get a link to read to a study. Usually though, it is just a blog post from someone who is not quite the expert that the poster wants people to believe.

I imagine that this ploy though works with some teenagers who are looking for answers to questions that have no answers. I think it also works in situations where the poster is in an environment where their only meaningful interaction is with like minded people.

LangClegsInSpace
Thank you for the legal definition.

Here is a screen shot of Merriam-Webster medical dictionary which describes a female
and then says, ‘especially a woman’.

The eternal (seemingly unanswerable) question still stands. If woman is just an identity what does it mean? If a person 'identifies as a woman' what are they identifying as?

@Helleofabore I think you are correct in that analysis, sadly. When I was in education and interacting with teenagers on a daily basis, I certainly knew my subject inside out and backwards in order to be able to respond to questioning. Indeed, what an educator in any setting should be encouraging is thoughtful questioning and using reasoning skills to judge arguments and reach conclusions. This idea of an educator as an infallible authority is not something that I find valuable.

Understood. That is what transgender people are fighting for in terms of their rights as trans healthcare has become so unaccessable it means getting a GRA can take years and years, which may result into self ID, which not everyone wants to resort to. However with better equality under the equality act for transgender people that may be avoided. It's kinda too much to explain in a post like this but I hope that makes some sort of sense.

I know you've gone off to work now, but it would be good if you could come back later and explain a bit more about what you have said here.

How should the Equality Act be changed, in your view?

Q: 'What is gender identity? How does it differ from gender expression?'

A: 'It's totally confidential information and I'm not going to answer your questions, but gender identity definitely exists apart from stereotypes and you're all bigots if you don't believe that and if you don't believe that gender identity is more important than biological sex'.

It's not the most compelling argument I've heard.

The eternal (seemingly unanswerable) question still stands. If woman is just an identity what does it mean? If a person 'identifies as a woman' what are they identifying as?

And that of course still doesn't answer why ultra sounds before birth are deemed accurate enough to determine whether or not someone keeps a baby with regards to sex selective abortion, why it's enough to throw the baby away at birth, or how they determine the sex in countries where there isn't money or time to have any kind.of gender expression. They don't have food let alone a pink bow to.put in their hair.

At what point does sex become meaningless. Why is there zero education campaign in these countries to warn them that some of these female babies might in fact be boys?

Great post @backinthebox

🦡🌈🤍

If I were to make a bingo card for this thread and similar others from the past couple of weeks it would contain:

I work with medical professionals.

I work in education.

My job...
Incorrect.
No.
Cis women.
I'm trying to educate you.
I'm not here to educate you.
I could tell you but you won't listen anyway.
I'm off to work now.
🤍