Ireland will no longer be providing single sex toilets in primary and secondary schools!!!

[XXSex]

I am LIVID!!! New technical guidance has been released.
www.education.ie/en/School-Design/Technical-Guidance-Documents/Current-Technical-Guidance/sdg-02-06-sanitary-facilities-april-2021-.pdf

All mixed sex. Hand basin outside the WC (WAH your bloody hands in front of boys). Doors down to the floor (any one else see an issue in a mixed sex school with mixed sex toilets with this set up)

What the were the department thinking?!!!

[quote MnaWomanIreland]@fireproofwitch it would have been one of the surveys. I can only hope that it isn’t the only one.[/quote]
It would be interesting to see what other research (if any) was considered.

This one consulted 4,000 LGBT young people. I’m still looking for other sources. Would this be retrievable from the department via an FOI?

assets.gov.ie/24459/9355b474de34447cb9a55261542a39cf.pdf

[quote MnaWomanIreland]This one consulted 4,000 LGBT young people. I’m still looking for other sources. Would this be retrievable from the department via an FOI?

assets.gov.ie/24459/9355b474de34447cb9a55261542a39cf.pdf[/quote]
If the only group that was consulted was LGBT groups then it would be pretty much the same route that was taken when Self ID was introduced.
Women weren't considered then either.

MountainWitch
“The loos have no lids either so you can't even sit on the loo and have a cry/moment to yourself.
It's a community facility too so in the evenings/weekends you have adults using the facilities too.“

No lids is an interesting extra point about these new arrangements not only for the reason you point out, but also because since covid it was found there is a aerosol effect when flushing which can be minimised by closing the lid.

Heartening responses to Colm O'Gorman's tweet there.

I don't like this survey on the oco.ie website.. Look at one of the first questions it asks children. Infuriating and setting seeds in impressionable young children that sex is optional and/or of no importance. This the #HaveYourSay survey that is currently live on the homepage, so seems relevant to this discussion. I have heard that children have been encouraged by their schools to fill this out.

Jul26m
“Can you give more information on how exactly this person attending toilets that match their gender identity excludes some females accessing facilities?”

I think what was meant was that, because of the need for a trans girl to have access to a safer space (girls’ lavatories), schools are solving the problem by making it so no girls are allowed to have their own safe space at all any more.

The answer is that there need to be single sex toilets (open to stop bullying if need be) and also an adequate number of individual, unisex ones - as many people on this thread seem to agree.

@Womansisterdaughtermother

I don't like this survey on the oco.ie website.. Look at one of the first questions it asks children. Infuriating and setting seeds in impressionable young children that sex is optional and/or of no importance. This the #HaveYourSay survey that is currently live on the homepage, so seems relevant to this discussion. I have heard that children have been encouraged by their schools to fill this out.

The ombudsman for children, Niall Muldoon, is a big fan of Self ID for under 18s and has been reappointed for another term by the Minister for Children Roderic O'Gorman. So that survey is not surprising.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/an-open-letter-to-irelands-childrens&ved=2ahUKEwisp8rJl5XwAhUYAWMBHeD9C-kQFjACegQICxAC&usg=AOvVaw2dT70KVsdYrlF4XqjlP67M" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/an-open-letter-to-irelands-childrens&ved=2ahUKEwisp8rJl5XwAhUYAWMBHeD9C-kQFjACegQICxAC&usg=AOvVaw2dT70KVsdYrlF4XqjlP67M
Most people in Ireland have no idea that this ideology, that is being pushed onto children, is supported by the very people we expect to protect them.

@fireproofwitch thanks yes, that disgraceful piece by NM made me almost physically sick when I read it. I just couldn't believe that he subscribes to this. The institutional capture here is frightening. You are right, most parents have no idea. The way that little question was framed... Is being a boy or a girl just a feeling now?

As if little children don’t already have enough difficulty already trying to make sense of their worlds.

@fireproofwitch I’ve gone in with an FOI. Never did one before so hopefully I got it right!

Great letters to the Editor in the Irish Times today. We need the department to actually revise this guide- the only way they will is through parent pressure. Keep writing to your TD and write to the department also.

I asked for a copy of the Equality Impact Assessment and I got back a load of waffle. I wonder if one exists at all? I think that there’s some law that all public bodies need to carry one out if they are changing policy. Some Equality Law but I can’t quite remember. Does anyone else know? If there is and they didn’t carry one out they will be in hot water!

[quote MnaWomanIreland]@fireproofwitch I’ve gone in with an FOI. Never did one before so hopefully I got it right!

Great letters to the Editor in the Irish Times today. We need the department to actually revise this guide- the only way they will is through parent pressure. Keep writing to your TD and write to the department also.

I asked for a copy of the Equality Impact Assessment and I got back a load of waffle. I wonder if one exists at all? I think that there’s some law that all public bodies need to carry one out if they are changing policy. Some Equality Law but I can’t quite remember. Does anyone else know? If there is and they didn’t carry one out they will be in hot water![/quote]
That's great. It will be interesting to see what the FOI request throws up.
I don't know about the Impact Assessment.,possibly that is in the UK? They don't tend to worry about women too much in Ireland.

Has anyone a link to the Times letters?

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/gender-neutral-toilets-in-schools-1.4545979?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true

[quote Boxty]www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/gender-neutral-toilets-in-schools-1.4545979?mode=amp&__twitter_impression=true[/quote]
Thanks for the link. Those letters are excellent and I think that they reflect the views of the majority.

Excellent letters... Those who wrote them have done a great service! Well done to Laoise for going on Joe Duffy.

This is absolutely crazy. Vast majority of people do not want this. Forget TWAW for a moment, this is done for the supposed benefit of a tiny minority, while everyone else has to suffer.

The letters in The Irish Times are excellent, thank you to all those who are speaking out and bringing these issues to light 💐

I'm so cross about this again tonight. Listened to the joe duffy episode the other evening and was delighted with Laoise's points and how she came across and also with the women who rang in and made good points against gender neutral toilets. Then the letters in the Irish times today gave me more hope that this is what the majority thinks. Then my dad said to me that he thought gender neutral toilets were a good idea because of young people who are "confused" (he meant trans). I pointed out that the trans identified children could surely have a third space rather than sacrificing the space for young women and he came around straight away when he thought about it.

But then I was texting my very woke friend who seems completely on board with the whole thing, I'm so disappointed as she has a young daughter and like myself was very awkward and shy growing up and would absolutely have hated to share toilets with boys. I made points regarding young girls skipping school because of their periods, holding in urine until they get home etc etc and she said "oh lets hope they teach everyone to respect the space. and they will be v different from the toilets we had anyway"...just ignoring the other points. I honestly don't know what has happened to people

"oh lets hope they teach everyone to respect the space. and they will be v different from the toilets we had anyway"...just ignoring the other points. I honestly don't know what has happened to people

James Lindsay did a good long podcast the other day - . Although he's saying "Communism" it covers all this naive stuff like "make the toilets mixed sex" or "defund the police".

That's a meme i want stuck in people's head: "communism doesn't know how". It doesn't know how humans work, has like one of the worst theories of humans that I've ever seen in my life. It has no concept - it's really baked up by people who don't understand how human beings work; whether they're psychopathic, whether they're personality disordered, whether they're... something... I don't want to shame autistic people, but there's this disconnection from how human beings actually operate. And it has a terrible theory of human.

Communism has a terrible theory of human, and Wokeness has like the worst theory of human that I've ever seen. It's like they've taken the bad - at least communism kind of had a sense of what humans are like - but Wokeness is the worst model of humanity I've ever seen in my life. The worst model of humans. Well it turns out that it doesn't know how society works either. It's got all these stupid ideas that are like, "oh you know everything's just cooperative and blah blah blah and if, you know, you just make it so that nothing bad is happening to people then they'll all want to cooperate and share and help".

They have no concept of where violence comes from, they have no concept of self-interest and how it actually works, they have no concept of competition, they have no concept of the fact that some people are just jerks. They have no concept of humanity, no concept of human beings, no concept of society; they just don't know what they're talking about. But most importantly, and this is the part that I want to focus on, it doesn't know how to achieve what it wants to achieve.

What I can't get my head around is that in this age of the sanctity of lived experience, women and girls who raise their voices are still being told to sit down and be quiet. The number of comments I've read saying 'I'm fine with it' or 'my daughters are grand with this' baffle me. Even if my daughters were fine with it, I have the sense and empathy to understand why some women and girls wouldn't be and I would want to find a way to support them.

The concept of 'communism doesn't know how' makes a lot of sense. It feels as though idealists with no real experience of reality have been put in charge. While their ideals might be noble, they seem to have glossed over the reality of the starting point, like the friend saying how she hopes everyone learns to respect the rules. That presumes that everyone comes from a place where they have the emotional and intellectual security, maturity and desire to do so. The reality is different and boundaries need to be in place to protect everyone.

Excellent piece here - ignore the first bit and scoot down to the Bathrrom bit
F*e and Schoolg**s
Adding to the list of what must not be named!

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/editorial-dublin-courts-must-not-be-seen-as-soft-touch-for-libel-litigants-xl5llct0v

[quote MnaWomanIreland]Excellent piece here - ignore the first bit and scoot down to the Bathrrom bit
F*e and Schoolg**s
Adding to the list of what must not be named!

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/editorial-dublin-courts-must-not-be-seen-as-soft-touch-for-libel-litigants-xl5llct0v[/quote]
Haha, I love that - it took me a minute to figure out what f**e was!