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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NeoPronouns / nounself pronouns?!!

172 replies

Waitingfor12th · 08/04/2021 20:13

I read this article and really tried to keep an open mind, but towards the end my brain was fried!! Has anyone got their head around neopronouns? Or even heard of this? I admit I hadn't.

A 13 year old is quoted as saying their chosen pronouns are bink/bonk. Other popular ones include bun / bunself and kitten / kittenself. Apparently the responsibility is on the other person to look up the person's "Carrd" (a one page website describing their pronoun preferences) before addressing them, so that there is no excuse for the person being addressed incorrectly.

Some young people are literally using an emoji instead of a pronoun! Such as "where is 🐾" / "what does 🐾 say?". It reminds me of when Prince changed his name to a symbol. I was 15 when that happened and thought it was silly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/style/neopronouns-nonbinary-explainer.html?referringSource=articleShare

OP posts:
Truthlikeness · 10/04/2021 15:18

What benefit is there in using specialised pronouns over just using the person's name in place of a pronoun? It's verbally a mouthful but not incorrect. That's the route I take with non-binary people if I need to distinguish between singular and plural.

Pronouns convey more information (sex and how many) and are quicker to say than a name. If a neo-pronoun achieves neither of those, then what is the point? And don't tell me it lets me know they think they're a tree. That's a piece of information I can do nothing with.

PotholeHellhole · 10/04/2021 15:20

P.S. I'm far more concerned with teaching MiniPot that anyone who teases boys for liking pink and calls them girls is the child of a bigoted, homophobic, misogynist home, than I am with with shaming MiniPot for that aberration in language development.

And we've encountered plenty of the former.

PolarnOPirate · 10/04/2021 15:28

Hmm, can’t quote @neroforte, maybe it’s my phone or maybe you have disabled it. I haven’t ‘raised’ my kids, they’re preschool and unborn. So you seem to be talking about my generation but chances are you are a part of it. ??

EyesOpening · 10/04/2021 15:29

@Bergamotte this is what comes to mind to me, when using "man" as a first person pronoun

PotholeHellhole · 10/04/2021 15:31

MN only supports single quotes, not cumulative. So if someone has quoted, you can't quote them

GoingThruTheMotions · 10/04/2021 15:59

It's easy to dismiss this as just a politeness, but when you actually consider what this means in practical terms.

Teacher and lecturers not only having to memorize thousands of names but also non reality based pronouns. It's not an easy task when applied to 400+ people. Let alone the danger of accidentally misgendering someone to their livelihood.

The subconscious messages you are sending by inconsistent grammar use. I think certain situations it's actually right and proper for the listener to receive the correct information about a person without being misleading. So that they can properly assess their own comfort with the situation.
Surely if you are going to spend the night on my couch for example, you have the right to know I cohabit with a male bodied person?

I don't honestly think third person pronouns, which is what we're talking about here by the way, are yours to dictate. By their very nature they are reality based and used when you are not there.

And dictating how people speak about you when you're not there strikes me as controlling.

Bergamotte · 10/04/2021 16:42

Thank you hallouminatus and EyesOpening ! That helps.

GoingThruTheMotions Yes, a dog probably does know that it is male or female, but I don't think any male dog is going to be offended if it hears itself being called "she" and vice versa for female dogs.

GreyhoundG1rl
No. There is zero "sense" relating to insisting your dog should not be referred to as male or female because they don't have a gender identity.
I said IF you think pronouns should represent gender identity- I didn't say I agreed!

Ze seems like a really nice, thoughtful person
Not from what you've said, actually. Imposing that on online friends is the very opposite of "thoughtful".
How often do you have to refer to this person without using the person's actual name (sorry, I refuse to do the ze shite) online anyway?
I'm struggling to imagine.
Sorry, I've probably given the wrong impression. I've never seen the person insist that others use ze/zir pronouns for them, or for their dog. I joined the forum after they did (I think it was years after they joined) and noticed after a while that if anyone talked about the person, they would say "I used Alex's recipe- ze bakes the best cakes" or whatever. I've never seen anyone refer to the person as "he" or "she." This is an online forum like Mumsnet so you can't see the person to have an automatic sense of which pronouns come naturally, the way you would in real life. (Maybe that is how some people get away with emoticon pronouns like the pawprints? I suspect that is very niche and mostly used by teenagers who will grow out of it though.)
The person has recently got a dog and will occasionally talk about "zir" but hasn't revealed its sex, or shared a photo which shows the dog's genitals, so if anyone was going to talk about the dog they could only call it by its name, or say "it," "they," or "ze."
It really doesn't come up very often at all though. Usually if someone is going to talk to or about the person, they just use their name. I haven't seen them in real life to see how they deal with pronouns in person.

When I say they seem like a nice, thoughtful person- the vast majority of what I've seen is them giving (what usually seems like good) advice to friends; making kind, supportive comments when someone has had a bad day; remembering people's birthdays; sharing a photo of a cool object because they know another person's child loves that type of thing; or neutral things like sharing recipes or recommendations for where to find allergy-friendly restaurants etc. I have never seen them directly ask someone to use their preferred pronouns, or say anything rude or aggressive or sarcastic about gender. The topic rarely comes up.
Obviously, like any stranger on the internet, I don't know what sort of person they really are.

But it is interesting to me because I came across them when I was an impressionable teenager, so I have always had the idea that it was ok to use "gender neutral" pronouns. (Yes I see now that all pronouns should be gender neutral; they should refer only to sex.) Also I only had to learn one set, so it seemed much more manageable than it would now with multiple options.
It is only in the last year or so that I have been lurking on Mumsnet that I have started to see the problems with this. (and ok, now looking back I can see where it did cause me problems but I was determined not to see it as I thought it was more important to be kind.)
Recently I have felt a bit annoyed when the cute, innocent dog (and zir collar, zir favourite frisbee etc) has been mentioned because it makes me think of other problems with gender-based pronouns. But others in the group are still very supportive. It makes me wonder how they would react if someone started using "fae" or "treeself" or unpronouncable emoticon pronouns.

*Alex is not the person's name!

Bergamotte · 10/04/2021 16:46

@GoingThruTheMotions

It's easy to dismiss this as just a politeness, but when you actually consider what this means in practical terms.

Teacher and lecturers not only having to memorize thousands of names but also non reality based pronouns. It's not an easy task when applied to 400+ people. Let alone the danger of accidentally misgendering someone to their livelihood.

The subconscious messages you are sending by inconsistent grammar use. I think certain situations it's actually right and proper for the listener to receive the correct information about a person without being misleading. So that they can properly assess their own comfort with the situation.
Surely if you are going to spend the night on my couch for example, you have the right to know I cohabit with a male bodied person?

I don't honestly think third person pronouns, which is what we're talking about here by the way, are yours to dictate. By their very nature they are reality based and used when you are not there.

And dictating how people speak about you when you're not there strikes me as controlling.

I agree with all of this. I find it hard enough remembering peoples names, but I don't have to memorise them (apart from the one individual I mentioned earlier) as it comes automatically to say he or she when those are based on the person's sex. It would be impossible if significant numbers of people started choosing particular pronouns that others "should" refer to them by.
Bergamotte · 10/04/2021 16:53

I'm still getting my head around the whole issue. I think part of the problem is that for years I didn't really know any trans or non-binary people in real life, so from online comics I got the idea that it was normal to "pass" as the sex people wanted to be seen as.
In that case, someone "misgendering" you or using your "deadname" would be revealing an embarrassing secret about you to the rest of the school, or to your colleagues, or to your friends or whatever. And your trans status couldn't become secret from those people again.
I could sympathise with that, imagining how I would feel if my peers found out about a certain embarrassing medical issue I had. So it seemed important to respect the charade.

That idea was so ingrained in me that it is only slowly that I'm starting to realise that as most tw and many tm don't "pass," the arguments for people being able to choose what pronouns others use about them are not as strong as I always assumed.

GreyhoundG1rl · 10/04/2021 17:01

I need to apologise in that case, Bergamotte. I misread the whole tone of your original post.

Bergamotte · 10/04/2021 17:08

Thanks GreyhoundG1rl and I'm sorry for being unclear. I often don't express myself very well.
I understand that you get a lot of goady posters trying to stir up trouble here.

TrefoilTrefoil · 11/04/2021 10:15

@Truthlikeness - yes, I wondered this too. It seems to me that pronouns need to be a small, limited group of possible terms if they aren’t to lose their usefulness, and therefore purpose. So one 3rd person singular like ‘person’ achieves this. We can also see the use in he/she/it. Them is more controversial as I know people don’t like the fact it is plural, but equally it has long been used for situations where we don’t know sex/gender. Finally, I can see the use in another form for gender-neutral individuals - because they had traditionally been used in the singular where we don’t know, it is very depersonalised. So ze, etc., works where we know an individual is gender neutral.

So, we are up to four pronouns for human beings, plus one for inanimate things. Leaving aside whether or not people actually agree with using they or ze or an individual’s stance on sex and gender, this group covers male, female and nb, as well as being workably brief. I’m struggling to see the advantage to anyone of expanding beyond this.

Once everyone can pick any word as a pronoun, I don’t see the linguistic advantage in simply not using their own name since it’s already personal to them.

GoingThruTheMotions · 11/04/2021 10:58

As a side I'd like to mention I am on the third book of the Killing Eve series. One of the characters has stated their pronouns are they/them. It's really confusing. It's clunky so I keep having to reread things and my mind keeps linking the two female characters to the pronoun because that would also make sense. And then there's the bits that actually do refer to them both to confuse the issue further.
I'm a fast reader normally but it's slowed me down and made it too much like hard work to enjoy it.
For these reasons and non transphobic ones I'm hoping she dies.

SmokedDuck · 11/04/2021 14:56

Yes, while them has long been used in some singular situations, it was in a limited way. Most people can do that intuitively. But it's not the same to use it for a non-binary individual, it's a completely different usage.

Beamur · 11/04/2021 15:11

I must confess that DD and I were tickled by bink/bonk and tried to actually use them in normal conversation and it was fiendishly difficult to remember and use them correctly! Using neopronouns in everyday spoken conversation is incredibly difficult and requires much effort - it interfered in being able to express clearly or maintain a thread of thought.

Truthlikeness · 11/04/2021 16:19

@GoingThruTheMotions

As a side I'd like to mention I am on the third book of the Killing Eve series. One of the characters has stated their pronouns are they/them. It's really confusing. It's clunky so I keep having to reread things and my mind keeps linking the two female characters to the pronoun because that would also make sense. And then there's the bits that actually do refer to them both to confuse the issue further. I'm a fast reader normally but it's slowed me down and made it too much like hard work to enjoy it. For these reasons and non transphobic ones I'm hoping she dies.
I was reading a sci-fi that introduced a NB character and I had a similar experience. That wasn't the only reason, but I've given up reading the book.
GreyhoundG1rl · 11/04/2021 16:29

Was the non binary thing in any way relevant to the plot (I imagine not) or just shoehorned in to be on trend?

Truthlikeness · 11/04/2021 16:34

@GreyhoundG1rl

Was the non binary thing in any way relevant to the plot (I imagine not) or just shoehorned in to be on trend?
I didn't get far enough to tell for sure, but I suspect the latter, which is always irritating in sci-fi set in a completely different universe. Use some flipping imagination.
GreyhoundG1rl · 11/04/2021 16:35

Yeah, I'd have dumped it at that point too. Pointless and annoying.

Truthlikeness · 11/04/2021 16:36

I should add, I adored Iain Banks's sci-fi novels, one (tiny) element of which was the ability of people to change sex - it took them a few months to go through the biological processes. They were a super advanced species who had no needs in life and basically just did stuff like that for fun.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 11/04/2021 22:45

Plink/plonk is fucking ingenious. That's the one I'm tempted to opt for if I come under pressure to announce the ridiculous things.

I've never heard of anything so self-absorbed as gender identity politics. It assumes the rest of the world gives a shiny shit who wears a tutu and calls themselves Shirley.

Teeeeeeeeeeedious. But the whole rotten construct is so nebulous I'm not surprised it's such a source of anxiety as the basis for 'identity'.

Brenda07 · 12/04/2021 22:34

[quote Waitingfor12th]I read this article and really tried to keep an open mind, but towards the end my brain was fried!! Has anyone got their head around neopronouns? Or even heard of this? I admit I hadn't.

A 13 year old is quoted as saying their chosen pronouns are bink/bonk. Other popular ones include bun / bunself and kitten / kittenself. Apparently the responsibility is on the other person to look up the person's "Carrd" (a one page website describing their pronoun preferences) before addressing them, so that there is no excuse for the person being addressed incorrectly.

Some young people are literally using an emoji instead of a pronoun! Such as "where is 🐾" / "what does 🐾 say?". It reminds me of when Prince changed his name to a symbol. I was 15 when that happened and thought it was silly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/style/neopronouns-nonbinary-explainer.html?referringSource=articleShare[/quote]
Firstly, BINK/BONK PRONOUNS ARE SO COOL SHDHSHDH
Secondly, neopronouns are often used,but not exclusive to, the neurodivergent community. ND People can experience gender in different ways to neurotypicals.so,it makes them more comfortable to use pronouns such as void/voidself, gore/goreself, bink/bonk ect. It's just a way of helping someone else feel more comfortable with their gender expression.
And pronouns like 🐾/🐾 are called "online neopronouns" they aren't used irl but through text. If your struggling to wrap your head around it(I did too at first😅) think of it like this:
You want to use she/her pronouns but another person comes along and says "I don't understand your pronouns so I'm just going to call you he/him instead." That would make you uncomfortable right? Well it's the same thing for neo's .just because you don't understand something absolutely doesn't mean it's not valid! (Also cisgender people shouldn't be making claims that neos are invalidating to the trans community as they aren't-this isn't directed at you just a PSA)-a trans person :) hope this helped!

WhatsGoin · 12/04/2021 22:50

I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable to be called he/him I’d be confused as I’m clearly female and would think the person was a bit strange tbh.

Neo pronouns are beyond ridiculous, there isn’t any chance I’ll ever use them.

GreyhoundG1rl · 12/04/2021 22:56

I'm torn between feeling amused and embarrassed for you that you ended that codswallop with a jaunty "Hope this helped!" Brenda, to be brutally honest.

ErrolTheDragon · 12/04/2021 23:01

Trying to use Bink/bonk etc sounds like it would be a bit like a verbal equivalent to the game Fizz-Buzz.

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