NeoPronouns / nounself pronouns?!!

[Waitingfor12th]

I read this article and really tried to keep an open mind, but towards the end my brain was fried!! Has anyone got their head around neopronouns? Or even heard of this? I admit I hadn't.

A 13 year old is quoted as saying their chosen pronouns are bink/bonk. Other popular ones include bun / bunself and kitten / kittenself. Apparently the responsibility is on the other person to look up the person's "Carrd" (a one page website describing their pronoun preferences) before addressing them, so that there is no excuse for the person being addressed incorrectly.

Some young people are literally using an emoji instead of a pronoun! Such as "where is 🐾" / "what does 🐾 say?". It reminds me of when Prince changed his name to a symbol. I was 15 when that happened and thought it was silly.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/style/neopronouns-nonbinary-explainer.html?referringSource=articleShare

I only know one person (and only online; we haven't met in person) who uses neopronouns. Ze likes people to use ze/zir pronouns when talking about zir. Ze also also uses ze/zir pronouns when talking about zir dog- which actually makes sense if you think pronouns should reflect gender identity rather than sex, as animals don't have gender identities.

It does require a lot of effort to type the right thing and when talking about this person in other spaces (where ze cannot hear what I'm saying so will not be upset) I usually say they/them as it is easier.

Ze seems like a really nice, thoughtful person- I have known zir for about 12 years and ze was an adult when we first "met." Ze is active in campaigning for better accessability eg for visually impaired and physically disabled people, and never seems to want to push gender roles on children. I do wonder how ze squares that with imposing language use on others.

Ze identifies as non-binary and I know this is very important to zir- I remember a few years ago ze mentioned how upset ze was that ze could never take part in a religious ritual where people have to be separated by sex.

I do wonder what would happen if, in this online community where everyone is very careful to use the preferred pronouns, and rightly respects this genuinely nice individual, what would happen if someone joined saying their pronouns were / s / self.

I would definitely struggle if someone used pawprints as a pronoun as I don't know how to type those!

God I really would just not bother talking to or about... Zir.

Ze seems like a really nice, thoughtful person
Not from what you've said, actually. Imposing that on online friends is the very opposite of "thoughtful".
How often do you have to refer to this person without using the person's actual name (sorry, I refuse to do the ze shite) online anyway?
I'm struggling to imagine.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I had to look that up, Delirium!

[[https://montypython.fandom.com/wiki/Raymond]]Luxury-Yachtt_Interview

😂 My name may be spelled 🐾 but it’s pronounced *€%?|¥?

Wasn’t life so much easier when young people expressed their individuality by becoming emos?

I get the impression that Neoforte is a child. Honestly I believe that once the teens of today grow up, most of them will also grow out of this fad. Hopefully before they've made any life changing alterations to their bodies. With some life experience and less time to be so self indulgent, they will hopefully realise that there is no way to live your 'authentic life' if you are pretending to be the opposite sex . They will look back and cringe! We've all been there I'm sure (although I more cringe about thinking I was destined to be a pop star rather than a man).

which actually makes sense if you think pronouns should reflect gender identity rather than sex, as animals don't have gender identities.
No. There is zero "sense" relating to insisting your dog should not be referred to as male or female because they don't have a gender identity.
Cop yourself on.
Jesus 🙄

I'm pretty sure your dog knows if it's a male or female. Even if you did chop it's knackers off to ensure no puppies.

It's not it's. Agghh autocorrect.

Customer: I'd like a dog. A bitch. I'm a breeder.
Pet Shop: I'm sorry we hasn't revealed its gender yet. Can I interest you in a poodle? They're all cute and fluffy so we assume they're femme.

@PolarnOPirate

I get the impression that Neoforte is a child. Honestly I believe that once the teens of today grow up, most of them will also grow out of this fad. Hopefully before they've made any life changing alterations to their bodies. With some life experience and less time to be so self indulgent, they will hopefully realise that there is no way to live your 'authentic life' if you are pretending to be the opposite sex . They will look back and cringe! We've all been there I'm sure (although I more cringe about thinking I was destined to be a pop star rather than a man).

i have no intention to make any changes to my body relating to my gender, i am a cis female. i think my generation will be more understanding (hopefully) and i hope to raise my son to be respectful of all identities, as i'm sure you all raised your children to be with other things that make people 'different'.

I'm raising my son to like what he wants. He's got a pink Princess castle, police cars, balls and a dolly. I'm raising him to know that sex is real, gender is a harmful construct and kindness shouldn't be a reason to invade the privacy of others. He's also disabled so I certainly won't be pushing a wrong body narrative for obvious reasons.
Generations aren't a hive mind you know. If you have a young baby I'd hazard a guess we are similar ages.
But carry on feeling superior won't you?
(Oh and I am vegan so don't my woke points trump yours?)

@GoingThruTheMotions

I'm raising my son to like what he wants. He's got a pink Princess castle, police cars, balls and a dolly. I'm raising him to know that sex is real, gender is a harmful construct and kindness shouldn't be a reason to invade the privacy of others. He's also disabled so I certainly won't be pushing a wrong body narrative for obvious reasons. Generations aren't a hive mind you know. If you have a young baby I'd hazard a guess we are similar ages. But carry on feeling superior won't you? (Oh and I am vegan so don't my woke points trump yours?)

no superior feeling here! i am raising my son like yours, mostly! yes gender is a harmful construct but the fact is that gender roles exist (sadly), and while they do, some people feel comfortable existing as one different to the one associated with their sex. i will teach him to respect that.

not sure what your point is about woke points though!

i am a cis female

With the combination of your disregard for the English language and the appropriation of the word female by males, I have no idea what your sex is.

@NotBadConsidering

i am a cis female

With the combination of your disregard for the English language and the appropriation of the word female by males, I have no idea what your sex is.

Yes, this. Who describes themselves as a cis female rather than woman? Anyone without an agenda, that is.

@NotBadConsidering

i am a cis female

With the combination of your disregard for the English language and the appropriation of the word female by males, I have no idea what your sex is.

lol!

Plenty of transwomen are now describing themselves as female. Someone was kicked out of the Green Party for challenging this. If people change the meaning of words to suit them and not everyone else’s understanding, we have no idea who we are interacting with, generally speaking.

Like in the example I gave earlier. A young female - by the actual definition of the word - presenting with abdo pain to an emergency department needs to have an ectopic pregnancy ruled out before anything else. But they tell the admin staff they’re male, they tell triage there “he” and it gets passed on like that. Does that person suspend their false reality long enough to tell medical staff they’re actually female in order to get appropriate care?

They’re*

Lol? What is amusing you, Nero, are you able to explain?

If they appear to have balls it’s he, no balls she. I’m not playing the pronoun game with anyone, it’s past the point of ridiculousness now.

bergamotte, I've just found a paper about the pronoun 'man' by linguist, prof Jenny Cheshire. She mentions that 'man' was used in English as an indefinite pronoun, as it still is in Dutch and German, until the 15th century. She says the new usage includes this as well as the first and third person usage I'd noticed, and also second person and plural uses. The link to the paper is on her website jennycheshire.com. Here are are few of the examples she quotes:
1. I don’t really mind how my girl looks if she looks decent yeah and there’s one bit of her face that just looks mashed yeah. I don’t care it’s her personality man’s looking at.
2. before I got arrested man paid for my own ticket to go Jamaica you know, but I’ve never paid to go on no holiday before this time I paid
3. he used to make us laugh in the way he shouts
'I told you not to bring your phone in school’ . make man laugh like.
Examples (1) and (2) above illustrate impersonal and first person values; (3) above illustrates first person plural reference; and (8) and (9) below illustrate, respectively, second person singular and third person singular reference.
8. man’s trying to take me for some kind of idiot (female addressing her errant boyfriend)
9. man’s only known you for about five minutes and even he’s onto you.

But if you buy into gender ideology and your son sees mine in an Elsa dress, your son is likely to call my son a girl. My son will be taught clothes are clothes which is harmful to noone and respectful to everyone. Your son will have ideas like if someone dresses up as a lady they are one. Which is limiting and harmful.

My son will also be told to find a lady with children if he's lost. He'll not have any confusing ideas about what a lady is so statistically safe.

I'm not cis. I don't identify with my oppression.

@GoingThruTheMotions

But if you buy into gender ideology and your son sees mine in an Elsa dress, your son is likely to call my son a girl. My son will be taught clothes are clothes which is harmful to noone and respectful to everyone. Your son will have ideas like if someone dresses up as a lady they are one. Which is limiting and harmful.

My son will also be told to find a lady with children if he's lost. He'll not have any confusing ideas about what a lady is so statistically safe.

I'm not cis. I don't identify with my oppression.

so will mine. but if someone says their pronouns are (whatever), then he will also respect that.

I'll just stick to second person you and yours. Grammatically correct you see.

Blimey. Sounds like your son isn't at the speaking stage yet. Have you considered the possibility that he may be amongst the children who have some level of problem with language development?

I have a child like this, who cannot consistently use sex-based pronouns as one would expect. I got called "he" all the time, and honestly, it's not a big deal to me. However, the chances that MiniPot would remember to call someone like the comedian Eddie Izzard by their requested pronouns are minimal. And in such a situation, I would be going in to bat for my child, not the incredibly rich celebrity.