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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dr Debbie Hayton interview

528 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 05/04/2021 13:20

In case you haven't seen it.

“I worry that trans people are being used in a political campaign to compromise women’s spaces”

OP posts:
TinselAngel · 09/04/2021 09:23

Understanding the tactical and strategic importance of things is important if you have a long range goal in mind that you very much want to see achieved.
My goal is amplifying the voices of trans widows.

StillAFemale · 09/04/2021 09:27

@ladygindiva

"A woman only at weekends" . I wish. I was raped on a Wednesday.
Flowers I hope you’ve been able to access some counselling and that it helped.
R0wantrees · 09/04/2021 09:38

Understanding the tactical and strategic importance of things is important if you have a long range goal in mind that you very much want to see achieved.

My goal is the correction of damage done to Child Protection and Safeguarding frameworks in order that children, women and Vulnerable Adults are better protected.

Justhadathought · 09/04/2021 09:38

And how on earth is it acceptable to have co-written something that's been explained in detail impacts female teaching staff, and then 🤷🏻‍♀️ & say/do nothing about it

Isn't this the start of that process? Personal realisation and then the steps that are taken to retrace and undo do not all happen over-night.

Justhadathought · 09/04/2021 09:39

My goal is the correction of damage done to Child Protection and Safeguarding frameworks in order that children, women and Vulnerable Adults are better protected

I think we are all agreed on that.

AdHominemNonSequitur · 09/04/2021 09:40

Yes everyone.

Trans widows are horribly affected by their spouses paraphilia . They have my empathy and full moral support, especially if they are trapped. My empathy is useless I want them to be meaningfully, materially helped. That is best served by challenging the ideology. Debbie Hayton is challenging it.

I am equally grateful to Rachel Rosario-Sanchez. If her contribution was disputed I would defend that to. We need every person we can.

I fully acknowledge that Debbie Hayton, Glinner, James Drefus etc have such a reach precisely because they are not female.

Doesn't change their effectiveness or the personal cost.

Justhadathought · 09/04/2021 09:45

I don't see anger for anger's sake here. I see people pointing out inconsistency between words and actions. you are interpreting it as excessive anger and irrationality

Perhaps I'm reading/feeling the expression of the words incorrectly? But to me a few posters just seem very angry much of the time. I get that people have suffered in very personal ways and that those feelings are still very raw.

Some times on here, as on any other forum, when someone doesn't go entirely with the flow, there can be a mob like swarming over the culprit. that's the nature of on-line forums; even though this one is amongst the most open minded.

But I'm not sure how holding someone over the metaphorical coals is going to help. Certainly not when they've just taken the first steps in admitting their culpability.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 09/04/2021 09:48

It seems to me that you interpret women expressing themselves forcefully or without apology as angry Just

I've knocked around here for several years as have you, and have seen you have this conversation before, so I don't expect to change your mind

but it's always worth wondering if our social conditioning is affecting the way we perceive things

TinselAngel · 09/04/2021 09:49

Trans widows are horribly affected by their spouses paraphilia . They have my empathy and full moral support, especially if they are trapped. My empathy is useless I want them to be meaningfully, materially helped. That is best served by challenging the ideology. Debbie Hayton is challenging it.

Sorry I'm going to have to ask for clarification of how our exes presence in feminist spaces, at the cost of our own exclusion from said spaces, helps us by challenging an ideology?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 09/04/2021 09:49

also, I'm not entirely sure what the issue with justifiable anger is?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 09/04/2021 09:50

ha! excellent juxtapostion of cross posts!

R0wantrees · 09/04/2021 09:56

Isn't this the start of that process? Personal realisation and then the steps that are taken to retrace and undo do not all happen over-night.

The classroom, female staff toilets and teaching union's purpose is not to act as therapeutic tools/props for male teachers struggling to understand / accept their sexual and/or mental health issues.

Particularly when this is to the detriment of children and female teaching staff.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 09/04/2021 09:59

Isn't this the start of that process? Personal realisation and then the steps that are taken to retrace and undo do not all happen over-night

in addition you seem to being saying that pointing out the harm a person has caused is in some way rude

Datun · 09/04/2021 10:06

Isn't this the start of that process? Personal realisation and then the steps that are taken to retrace and undo do not all happen over-night.

Maybe that's where the misunderstanding has arisen just this isn't the first time, by a long shot, that the women here have asked Debbie to address their authorship of the damaging NASUWT guidance.

Iirc, there have been several threads asking Debbie the same thing, over a couple of years.

In don't think it has ever been addressed.

This isn't new.

TinselAngel · 09/04/2021 10:11

Also, a while back Dr Em was threatened with doxxing for raising the same issue on Twitter.

Clymene · 09/04/2021 10:19

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

R0wantrees · 09/04/2021 10:39

Also, a while back Dr Em was threatened with doxxing for raising the same issue on Twitter.

Doxxing?
Those involved in coercing, persuading, threatening, shaming or exerting any other form of pressure on women who are identifying serious Safeguarding and legal issues in teaching union documents that have and continue to influence UK school policies really should step back and reflect.

Especially if they are yet to acknowledge the degree to which they have been encouraged / influenced to act.

'Flying Monkeys (The Narcissist’s Tool for the Smear Campaign)'
by Inner Integration

May 13, 2018
(extract)
"First of all flying monkeys are also known as the:
entourage
accomplices
enablers
extension of the narcissist
campaign managers
They’re out there recruiting other people, kind of in a way like religious people might knock on your door and try to recruit you into their religion. They’re trying to convert you into the religion of the narcissist, which is reality by the narcissist.
So the role of these flying monkeys is first of all abuse by proxy." (continues)

Flying monkeys make the narcissist feel like they’re important and special. They help the narcissist feel like they’re grandiose, like they have high status, like they’re famous or a celebrity, which is what the narcissist wants to feel. Narcissists often have a whole entourage around them just like a celebrity needs an entourage in order to feel secure about themselves.

So who can become flying monkeys?
There are two different categories of people.
The first category is the naive.
The naive are people who are just clueless. They can’t see it, they can’t fathom it, they’ve never been through anything like that, so they can’t even imagine that somebody would do such a thing to just make up all these lies about you and spread them across town. They just can’t even fathom that a human would do that or maybe the naive is also the fawning type.
This is the type of people who when faced with a fight or flight dilemma, they choose fawning instead where they just melt into into a strong, dominant personality to feel safe and they don’t realize what’s happening. You might have noticed that even you became one of these flying monkeys when you were in your naive state before you woke up, before you figured out what was going on.

The second category of people who can become flying monkeys are the toxic.
These are the people with no boundaries. They love gossip and drama, they’re addicted to that stuff. They have an integrity problem and usually they want something from the narcissist. They want status, they want flattery, they want favours. They’re getting something out of the narcissist, which is why they’re willing to do their bidding. (continues)
medium.com/@OwnYourReality/flying-monkeys-the-narcissists-tool-for-the-smear-campaign-798daf7a59c0

Floisme · 09/04/2021 10:41

I'm conflicted. Reading Debbie Hayton helped me in no small way to form some of my views on this debate and I'll always be grateful for that. Debbie does still strike me as a thoughtful person who's prepared to listen - I imagine they listen to Stephanie Hayton quite lot. And I do quite enjoy the way Debbie seems to get right up the noses of some extreme gender ideologues, but then I'm a bad person and should do better.
But:
I've seen Debbie evade these questions before and it makes me very aware that they have their own agenda. Fair enough, don't we all, but I think it needs stating. Often. I would appreciate more honesty.
I find it frustrating when Debbie gets more attention - even on here - than someone like Raquel Rosario Sanchez.
I feel terrible for Stephanie Hayton and would love to hear her speak more.

TheShadowyFeminist · 09/04/2021 10:41

Isn't this the start of that process?

No, it 'started' quite some time ago, and isn't progressing at all because DH continues to pretend there's nothing to see & we should all move along.

But it's interesting that some people are posting to try and do the same, and suggest that there's nothing to see & we should all move along.

There's a lot of effort going into avoiding this issue instead of the much easier/more straightforward way of, you know, just tackling it.

How long is the 'start' of this process, so we know when to stop asking the same questions? By my calculations, I was aware of this only when Dr Em wrote about it (for which she received threats, as mentioned) and that was months ago.

IloveJKRowling · 09/04/2021 10:43

My goal is the correction of damage done to Child Protection and Safeguarding frameworks in order that children, women and Vulnerable Adults are better protected

I think we are all agreed on that.

I'd hope so on a site named Mumsnet but I'm sorry I don't see this as a great space for discussing this recently - women get deleted for discussing safeguarding sometimes.

Is the NASUWT guidance a safeguarding issue?

TinselAngel · 09/04/2021 10:48

there's nothing to see & we should all move along.

This dynamic is very familiar to trans widows.

R0wantrees · 09/04/2021 10:50

Is the NASUWT guidance a safeguarding issue?

It is.

IloveJKRowling · 09/04/2021 10:58

Yes, I agree, it is. I've just read it and your excellent summary upthread R0 (sorry I've come back to this thread again after a while and had forgotten the earlier posts).

Compelling students to use wrong-sex pronouns. Whilst presumably the school is also telling them to be honest and that honesty is an important quality to have? Gaslighting and dangerous erosion of boundaries.

R0wantrees · 09/04/2021 11:12

Previous FWR thread (June 2020)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3938537-NASUWT-Trans-Equality-in-Schools

The Threadreader link to DrEM's analysis of Dr Hayton's NASUWT and TES work in OP is sadly now broken. It can instead be accessed here:

twitter.com/PankhurstEM/status/1272131652253294594

R0wantrees · 09/04/2021 11:21

Previous FWR thread (May 2019)

During discussion about Dr Hayton's TES guide to enabling gender/ gender identity expression in schools within Safeguarding & legislative frameworks,

EmpressLesbianInChair wrote, Mon 13-May-19
"...thank you for writing this piece, Debbie, but I am going to ask again - isn't it important for gender-cricital transwomen to be avoiding the use of female-only spaces, both to lead by example and so as not to give less well-intentioned males an excuse by setting a precedent?"

SpartacusAutisticusAHF wrote, Mon 13-May-19
"I'd like to see an answer to Empress's question too. Modelling desired behaviour is pretty important for a teacher I'd have thought."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3582158-debbie-hayton-in-the-tes?pg=4