I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

@ContractClockAndCrucible

Hand hold from me. I don't go there with my youngest DD, who's 23, since a big row about JKR. I'd love to sit down with her and have a rational discussion, but the TWAW ideologues, by definition, don't do rational. It's all shouting and flouncing.

This is my experience!

Am so sorry you had such an upsetting experience OP. My eldest 2 are 15 and 17, and DH and I have to avoid this topic because (and I would never say this to the kids) they get so unreasonable about it.

By this, I mean they just seem to brain washed. They can’t listen to me explain my views (which are very wishy washy liberal, live and let live) without it turning into a sort of ‘if you’re not with us, you’re against us’ strop. I don’t really care what views they hold, what upsets me is that I feel discussion is no longer allowed, diverging views are not allowed, and one mis-speak or poor choice of words is a hate crime.

I feel like I have stepped into the book 1984/ 1930s Germany/ cultural revolution China, where my children would shop me to the authorities for not holding the right views.

So a big hug and hand hold from me too OP x

My children are younger so I don’t have experience of parenting teens but this reminded me of the saying that “teens are overgrown (if slightly more articulate) toddlers”. The OP’s son was behaving like my two year old - won’t listen to reason, no matter how patiently and how many times you explain, absolutely convinced they are right and (verbally) hitting out at Mummy rather than Daddy because she is “safe” and they feel totally secure in her love. It must be immensely frustrating OP (at least my toddler is cute and gives lovely cuddles when he’s not arguing red is yellow) but I agree that the best thing to do in the name of peace is to say things got a little heated, you’re sorry for calling him names and in future perhaps it’s best you respectfully agree to disagree on this topic. Then just avoid it.

I'm with you OP and your post brought back the memories of many hideous emotional "debates" I had with my DC at that age. The shocking realisation that your otherwise astute DC have lost their sense to that degree, that your otherwise independent-minded Dc have absorbed group-think wholesale; and treat they have done so for a world-view that loathes denies and demeans the existence of the physical entity who bore them - their mother - hurts like nothing else I know.

After three years of not ever talking about it again, my DD told me about 18 months ago that she had changed her views and that she was ashamed of how shallow her thinking had been before, and of the incredibly unpleasant things she had said.

The trouble with your DS is that he experiences almost all of this second hand, voyeuristically almost, given that TWAW doesn't affect any aspect of his life other than make him look good as a woke bloke. So it might take him a while to re think things.

My heart does go out to you!

Interestingly DH was involved in the conversation and didn’t get anywhere near the abuse I got. He said he would be ‘superstraight’ as he’d never want to sleep with a man, and in his opinion TWAM and the kids both said well that’s up to you and went back to shouting at me. This is awful - was this the case even before you snapped and called DS a little shit? If it was, I’d be expecting them to take a long hard look at that. Don’t suppose it’ll happen though. It continually shocks me how men seem to get away with GC views when women don’t (and yet it doesn’t shock me at all...).

I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with this. I feel very lucky that my DD1 is only 13 and while she’s autistic and easily led, she at least hasn’t got to the stage of adolescence where parents are Wrong About Everything, so we have mostly had decent if somewhat fraught conversations. I did lose my cool at the same bit though - she randomly brought up the superstraight thing and I instantly ranted about lesbians being threatened if they don’t want penis etc.

Re the social contagion/anorexia etc I was suddenly grateful for the fact there had been a spate of self harming talk at school a year ago, she knows how serious it is in reality (a friend has for a long time and she knows I used to due to scars) but she did understand a bit about how gender identity was becoming another answer for unhappy kids and how at the time self harm seemed like the answer (even if they didn’t actually do it)... but then just as quickly it was forgotten. Sadly this issue won’t die away so quickly.

betterfantasia
Please be informed that if anyone wishes to spew rape rhetoric, anti-semitism, racism and so on, my home absolutely is a space where you will be told what you just said.

I care rather more about my home being a safe space for me and any of those groups than I do the feelings of a misogynist, anti-semite or racist.

So please never visit, thanks!

Wonder what else I'm going to be expected to put up with from my children without shouting when they're adults?

Are you really so immature that you think not yelling and abusive name calling is tantamount to putting up with something?

There is a big world out there, some of it called being a responsible person and other parts called not alienating your children and still other parts called modelling how to disagree. There's also a place called being assertive without resorting to abuse. So, so many options.

I had a major row with my slightly older DS, I discovered he’d called a woman Trf on Twitter when DS was getting all fired up about the risk of a TW being raped in prison if they were put into a male prison.
I was incandescent with rage over him calling a woman a Trf and provided him with a series of brutal true facts around rape statistics for women and numbers of TW sex offenders in prison from the MoJ stats. I also hinted to him I’d been raped (I have but didn’t want to be too brutal in how I told him that). First day I blew up and went out for the day, next few days I provided the facts and told him if he was going along with this I was opting out of the role of mum for him and the terms of our relationship was changing as I wasn’t playing along with my socially mandated role anymore.
He was already well aware I felt strongly on the subject but hadn’t realised the depth of my rage against the push on women’s rights. He had no idea how bad the rape stats for women were. And he needed to know both, it did cause a rethink on his behalf.

I would in your shoes be tempted to identify as a man and like a PP suggested now refuse to do anything for them as you no longer identify as their mother. Which would obviously be ridiculous assuming DH pulls his weight as their dad, but maybe it would prove a point. Maybe DH would then get some criticism for being superstraight and refusing to accept that you are a man and he has clearly been gay this whole time. :o

Some really good advice here already, and you have my sympathies, OP.

What is it, though, about Brighton? Has it always been like this?

You could gently point out to your son that he is being incredibly conformist and express disappointment that he is so uncritical. I would also let your husband have a word as your son seems to have issues with his own masculinity. Hectoring and shouting in arguments and treating older women as if their views didn’t count is classic male behaviour.

Losing your shit may be satisfying but it's also alienating and gives the impression that you are bigoted

I think in this case it gives the impression that bigotry will not be tolerated.

To quote Pothole.

"And a 18 year old who is big enough to tell lesbians they're transphobic is big enough to be told exactly how vile he's being."

I am really not an advocate for parents 'losing their shit', but sometimes children need to learn how far they have crossed a line, and the remarks made by the son were appallingly rude. That is not 'stately homes' territory.

Arguing with your mother about whether it is possible to switch between girl mode and boy mode really is just plain offensive, and the remark about lesbians was homophobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry

I get this too with my 27 year old son, who still lives at home. He's an emotional thinker and has totally immersed himself in left wing Corbynistic/wokeism -much of which is theoretical and detached from reality. He makes everything personal and it can be very upsetting.

When I was a teenager and into my twenties I used to be similar. When young you are convinced this is the truth and the only truth, and everyone else is just a compromised sell-out. then you grow up, experience more of life, and come up against the harder edges and boundaries and develop more of a sense of realism.

Weirdly, I’ve argued (calmly) with my ‘woke-er’ father about this, so it’s not just teenagers! He gets it now tbf.

After prolonged personal comment, I ended up telling him he was 'ideologically brainwashed'. He hasn't spoken to me for three days now. He's so crabby and emotionally retentive.

sometimes people get hurt and then they shout and fight back

If your mother is shouting at you ( and doesn't generally shout at you or other people - isn't an abusive person in other words) then it's pretty clear they have been hurt and frightened by your words and actions

That makes the son the perpetrator not a victim

Weirdly, I’ve argued (calmly) with my ‘woke-er’ father about this, so it’s not just teenagers! grin He gets it now tbf

Yes, my feeling is that people who are not naturally political creatures, even as they age, can be tremendously naive when it comes to politics/ideology etc.

Sorry OP! It’s horrible when arguments like this get out of control.

Your husband is right, there is little substance to the argument which is why it gets shouty.

I think a small percentage of people are genuinely trans, of course, but the rest of it is just a wave that’s going on right now and it will calm down. I can understand, I guess, why it’s appealing to teen girls, as I think being an older girl and a woman is pretty unappealing right now.

Every generation re-writes the world of course, but I’d say 5-10% of this stuff will stick, the rest will wash away.

In the meantime I’d have the key points in your head and gradually chip away at them.

I am lucky in that my younger teen ds is GC like me, but his friendship group are not.

In fact in a recent group text convo one of his female friends said 'Literally no one agrees with you' which made me a bit cross as it feels like they are trying to get to him through peer pressure. (He shared that with me, by the way, I wasn't snooping!)

I am proud of him for being a critical thinker and being confident enough to stand his ground, but equally I would hate for his friends to sideline him. I have also said that if the convos turn that way in future it might be best to not get involved or point out that they know his views on the subject and leave it there - as texts can be misinterpreted. I do find it concerning that some of his peers are so happy to deny reality and go with what they are told without actually thinking critically about it.
The cognitive dissonance is astonishing.

It might be worth using 'can you seriously look me in the eye and say that if me and Dad came out as trans you'd have no idea which of us impregnanted the other?' (loosely based on what I read on another thread years back) to point out the absurdity of what your ds is saying if you both get to a point of calmly discussing the issue.

The trouble with your DS is that he experiences almost all of this second hand, voyeuristically almost, given that TWAW doesn't affect any aspect of his life other than make him look good as a woke bloke.
This is so true. It’s so easy to be super tolerant of things that don’t affect your life in the slightest. TBH for the last year it’s been easier for everyone as so much of life has been shut down by covid - girls aren’t being threatened by TWs in places like gym changing rooms because they’re closed. It’s easy to say “that never happens” because right now it literally can’t. Everyone’s perfect behind their Twitter usernames when they barely leave their house and classroom and don’t face these issues in the real world.

Hand hold OP that sounds horrible.

I agree with much of what's been said, but I don't think young people will 'grow out of it'. Many have had this in school since they were small. Boundaries have been eroded. Safeguarding has been undermined. They have been taugt by Stonewalled orgs and media about who is the #MostOppressed. Many youngsters have been absorbing this bolleux through social media since they were in long socks. It's the water they swim in. They aren't going to spontaneously realise it's nonsense.

I think the only way these youngsters will start to question these beliefs is when the 'in group' propose something they instinctively disagree with. When they find themselves 'on the wrong side' of thr latest fashionable view. And I wonder if that lies a decade or two off, yet. I think some of the female ones might start to think differently when they have kids. Sorry to be a downer!

Oh no! I'm glad you said what you said. I agree with you. Hand hold. Leave them to it.

Discussing this with my 22 year old daughter who is in the theatre industry and has many gay and non binary friends and started rolling her eyes straight away.
I'm rather proud of her take....

Oh I think the son is confused to be honest, it's a confusing topic but honestly I feel like those that get so offended and shout really loud instead of just getting on with it, and being happy that they are accepted, twist them selfs up in arguments are just scared. I mean if you wake up one day feeling like a man and the next you feel like a woman, it must be confusing and a bit scary. I know I'd be a bit scared.
It's totally normal to not understand it. But as long as you let people be who ever or how ever they want, we don't need to understand, just respect people for being human.

And I wonder if that lies a decade or two off, yet.
Please no 😭

I liked the suggestion upthread that you become non binary yourself (or whatever the term is FFS)

So, you no longer feel able to wash, cook or clean for him as that would be gender stereotypical and hence wrong.

When my teen gets a bit shouty, I simply say "don't be a twat" so I'm not going to give you any parenting advice as clearly my approach would n't approach in any manual.

Every day I learn a bit more about what we can't say

The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect - George Orwell, 1984