I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

@betterfantasia

Stately Homes is about a lot more than being called a shit during an argument and it's offensive to suggest otherwise.

It is often about being name called and yelled at by a parent simply for holding a different view. That is traumatising and abusive. It is offensive to suggest otherwise.

It clearly depends on whether or not it's a pattern of behaviour or a one-off losing their shit.

Did she really escalate it? Or is that her social conditioning taking the blame? If you kick a dog are you surprised if one day it bites ?

Live in the real world,

@betterfantasia

Stately Homes is about a lot more than being called a shit during an argument and it's offensive to suggest otherwise.

It is often about being name called and yelled at by a parent simply for holding a different view. That is traumatising and abusive. It is offensive to suggest otherwise.

Very often said on here. 3/10 abuse is not ok just because some have 7/10

Handhold OP. I would definitely be tempted to tell them that I am rejecting the oppressive gender stereotypes of cooking and cleaning for them henceforth.

@betterfantasia

I don't understand your first paragraph, merry. The I just have a different view approach doesn't work? Eh?

Sorry if that was unclear.

There is no way to excuse the behaviour.

There is no way to tell your mother that sex is irrelevant without appearing rude or stupid.

I have talked about this stuff for years to my kids. They won't come out to their friends and say TWAM because they don't want to be ostracised but they know it's bollocks.

And seriously I wouldn't let my kids to go Brighton or live anywhere near there. The social contagion is out of control there.

If you would like a little perspective from the ‘other side’ of the views. I believe that people can change gender. Do you believe that trans people have changed gender? I understand not saying they’ve changed sex because they obviously can’t. But they’re people who believe they were born in the wrong body and are trying to fix it the only way they know how. Now, this I believe is different to what is happening to a lot of young people. There have been a teeny tiny minority of trans people for hundreds of years, but it is definitely NOT the amount that young people seem to think it is. I’m also unsure on the whole changing genders daily/weekly, but maybe that’s some sort of identity disorder that fluctuates. I actually believe that these kids think you’re being hateful and bigoted, because they have been taught by the media to think that way. It’s probably upsetting for your son to feel this way, but he needs to grow up and understand people can be nice while holding different views.

I think ultimately you need to have a chat with your son and tell him that you respect his right to have his views but there will be absolutely no further discussion until he can talk calmly and without insults. I’m sorry the discussion turned into an argument, and what they said was absolutely not acceptable, your son is young and will learn with time. Keep communication open for everything he’s not this angry about, I’m sure he will grow up to be understanding and learn to stfu sometimes 😂

goes by a made up name (male Greek god).
I think this is quite fitting as the Greek and Roman god's were all amoral selfish navel gazing assholes too.
I'd be tempted to get the name wrong, Narcissis would be a great fit. Or read up on all the horrible things their God did ( they'll be loads because all the male god were misogynistic rapey bastards.) Then any accusations of feeling unsafe can be met with, "I wonder how safe Daphne felt as Apollo was chasing her to give her a good raping. Thank god trans has always existed and she managed to escape by identifying as a tree."

Unfortunate that you've alienated your children in this way. Perhaps it will seem worth it in the long run. I doubt it though.

told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

Not wrong, OP, not wrong. I feel like the lack of war for many years, or feeling the shadow of one, the comparative wealth, freedom and safety of modern life makes this generation start wars when there's no need for one.

merry

So there is no acceptable way for them to state their view at all in your opinion? Ergo she is entitled to escalate to abusive behaviour regardless of tone or absence or insulting behaviour because the words themselves are just so shocking?

I think this shows great immaturity on your part and it will certainly not help anyone salvage common ground with their children. Not that this seems to be a priority.

As you can clearly see from the OP, the DS called lesbians transphobic for not dispensing sex to people with penises.

I have a lot of opinions about child welfare, and not being abusive. A lot. I moved out at 18 myself for a reason.

But I have lines. And a 18 year old who is big enough to tell lesbians they're transphobic is big enough to be told exactly how vile he's being.

It is often about being name called and yelled at by a parent simply for holding a different view. That is traumatising and abusive. It is offensive to suggest otherwise.

Less traumatising than inevitably learning that you can't simply decide whether to be treated as male or female, or do anything to avoid the consequences of sex.

@LitCritChick

goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I think this is quite fitting as the Greek and Roman god's were all amoral selfish navel gazing assholes too. I'd be tempted to get the name wrong, Narcissis would be a great fit. Or read up on all the horrible things their God did ( they'll be loads because all the male god were misogynistic rapey bastards.) Then any accusations of feeling unsafe can be met with, "I wonder how safe Daphne felt as Apollo was chasing her to give her a good raping. Thank god trans has always existed and she managed to escape by identifying as a tree."

Ha ha you should go over for dinner and ill film this

goes by a made up name (male Greek god).
I think this is quite fitting as the Greek and Roman god's were all amoral selfish navel gazing assholes

So he's an asshole because they identifies in this way. That's all you know about them but you're taking this view about a teenage stranger. Lovely.

@LitCritChick

goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I think this is quite fitting as the Greek and Roman god's were all amoral selfish navel gazing assholes too. I'd be tempted to get the name wrong, Narcissis would be a great fit. Or read up on all the horrible things their God did ( they'll be loads because all the male god were misogynistic rapey bastards.) Then any accusations of feeling unsafe can be met with, "I wonder how safe Daphne felt as Apollo was chasing her to give her a good raping. Thank god trans has always existed and she managed to escape by identifying as a tree."

Oh that gave me a much needed chuckle, thank you!

Wonder what else I'm going to be expected to put up with from my children without shouting when they're adults?

Will I be expected to put up with "Hitler had a point?" (Had that from a relative once. I told them that was vile as well.)
Condemnation of interracial marriage?
Support of eugenics?

So there is no acceptable way for them to state their view at all in your opinion?

No, I don't think there is a polite way to tell your mother that sex is a minor irrelevance.

See also 'I don't see colour' and 'the Jewish race doesn't really exist', but with a bit of mastitis and some vaginal tearing thrown in for good measure.

I don’t know but it sounds horrendous

I am tackling things now about women’s rights and have already had to tell my children that they can’t change gender ... aged 6&9 they had already picked up on that

I think you just need to push back at every turn and I suppose now that they’re teenagers you can completely level with them

I think you did a great job by the sounds of it

Less traumatising than inevitably learning that you can't simply decide whether to be treated as male or female, or do anything to avoid the consequences of sex.

Again, your point? Are you suggesting the OP did her children a favour by screaming at them and calling them names? Because I'd say she has made it hard for them to give those views a credible hearing going forward. Losing your shit may be satisfying but it's also alienating and gives the impression that you are bigoted in the sense that you put these views ahead of other moral values like common civility and respectful behaviour. A lot of people will disregard such views immediately if they're given in this context, understandably.

I think I'd feel unsafe to visit anyone's home if they thought this behaviour was ever acceptable. The OP made it patently obvious why the person who felt unsafe would have experienced that emotion.

I'd have lost my shit too. Dd is 14 and I have a Dd who is 12 and both are GC with dd1 getting shit for it at school. Handhold from me too

I'm going to be terribly, terribly blunt.

There is no polite way to tell women that they bigoted for not having sex. Ever.

Accusing people of being morally in the wrong for not having sex with anyone is so far over the line, you can't even see the line.

Vaginas are not subject to the Equality Act and they weren't supposed to be. Women are not some kind of resource to be distributed.

Oh please, the poor wee 18 year old young man is obviously so abused and cowed. 🙄 He's got no problem abusing his own mother in her own damn home!

Don't listen op, rude know-it-all teens are hard hard work.

If some posters are correct and the poor lamb of a DS and his SO are being abused, perhaps they would be safer going to live somewhere else.

10:55merrymouse

And your response to the rest of my post? The part about accountability and behaving abusively?