I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

I think you were remarkably articulate and restrained OP in the face of such rudeness from your children.
Once you've all calmed down I think I would have a conversation. They don't get to call you names, regardless of their opinions and how they think that reflects on yours. If they can manage a polite conversation then you can discuss this. If not then they need to keep their views out of the house. The girlfriend is welcome, but it's up to her if she comes or not.
I don't think them seeing you push back is a bad thing. They won't have heard any genuine arguments or opinions that are outside of this thinking. I think you also need to consider that you although you are using the same words - their meanings are not the same. You might want to ask them to explain what exactly they mean by 'sex' and 'gender' - i would bet it won't be the same as your understanding of the meaning.
I would be tempted to say that the word transphobic has lost any impact if you use it to describe lesbians refusing to have sex with people with penises. Because by definition lesbians don't have sex with penises.

if a family can’t have an argument where there is heated exchange of views without being called abusive, then every family in the country probably is abusive by your standards

This nurturing of a sense of mental fragility is examined in the book The Coddling of The American Mind Worth a read.

I think that these teens genuinely believe they’re on the side of right and are all fired up. The language used by some (maybe the op) does sound to them exactly like the racist and homophobic language used by some parents back in the 80s. Escalating only makes it sound more so.

I work in the civil service and on our team we have a super woke girl who just spouts all this nonsense day in day out trans this trans that it’s so dull and stuff around sex workers being a valid life choice ODFOD but obviously I don’t say anything because she has already had a security guard cautioned about what he allegedly said to her. It’s a weird world for sure

There really is a lot of scope for nudgy teasing there, Wikipedia the stories and go nuts.
I'd also start looking into getting her feminist Greek literature for Xmas like 'Silence of the Girls'.

Another here sympathising with you OP.

I'm lucky, my sons are 26 and are a bit SEP (someone else's problem) at the whole thing but have very politely listened to me when I have raised the issue or it has cropped up for whatever reason.

However, I have had a younger woman, approaching 30 sweep aside all my arguments during what started out as a polite discussion and finally tell me because I'm 52 I can't possibly know what I'm talking about. I'm not sure the friendship can be repaired.

And a shop customer who I know a bit, while purchasing something and commenting on the weather remarked she was going home to a warm fire and it would be improved by throwing a few JKR books onto it, plus a bit of commentary about her supposed transphobia. I didn't bite, but gave a neutral response about feeling that as this was all beyond my lived experience I didn't feel able to comment despite being very shocked, but I know she's on the spectrum, so didn't want to sully our association, or risk my business by being branded as a bigot. She then brought it up again, and I again refused to be drawn in and drew her attention to other shop items, but she had commented on my being "diplomatic". Too damn right. Cowardly though it may be I'm not about to be outed on facebook and have my hanging by a thread livelihood further compromised by not wanting to cynically be inclusive when this stuff should have no bearing on buying my widgets, I have trans friends, and I also have my own GC position, which I don't feel able, not think i should have to advertise for woke points. I treat all my customers with respect end of.

Said person then came out as non-binary on facebook a short while after, receiving lots of validation. I wonder if they wanted a discussion, but It's not my place to tell someone that my view conflicts with theirs in my business setting, and when it makes no difference to me in that context.

I feel cowardly. But on the two occasions when I have mentioned Mumsnet online in facebook posts as my go to of choice when procrastination kicks in, I've immediately had comments about this site being a hotbed of transphobia. And I've just withdrawn. I approach facebook intermittently in the manner of a lion tamer with chair and whip in hand now. I used to post quite alot of social issues stuff across the board, and now I'm too scared.

How sad is that?

Sorry, haven’t RTFT, but intrigued by the comment by your teenager that people can change sex overnight.

I’d consider winding them up- tell them they need to spread the word, that people can change sex if they wish hard enough. Your teenager needs to spread this information far and wide. Start fundraising, for a mission to the Middle East and Africa, where FGM is still happening today. Tell him he can track down those little girls, their families and the people who are carrying out the mutilations with dirty blades and no anaesthesia, and let them know that these little girls can and have identified out of being a girl and changed sex overnight.
Who would want to be a boy more than a little girl who is about to undergo that brutality?

Hopefully this might open their eyes a little.

We have so much privilege here. It’s insulting to women and girls all over the world and for all of history, to claim we can change sex just because we want to.

The Revolution will be complete when the language is perfect - George Orwell, 1984

I really need to reread this now don’t I. Must’ve been about 18 the first time but I’d probably get more out of it now (including tears of frustration, most likely)

Adding Coddling... to my wish list too, thanks Just

And yes, ‘outwoking’ could be a good strategy. You could present it as a result of deep reflection on your son’s and his girlfriend’s point of view.

It might be time for your son to get his own place to live seeing as he's an adult and has it all worked out.
There's no way in the world I would tolerate being treated like that and shouted at by my kids in my own home.
Total lack of respect.

See reading threads like this has made me glad I started discussing things very early with my girls. I'm hoping that my feminism has rubbed off enough to stick as they get older.

Op I really feel for you.

As to the girls friend feeling 'unsafe' - WTAF that would piss me off so much, I'd be challenging what they meant by that? What to they think you are going to do? Unsafe to me is physical safety- does she think you are goi g to beat her?? How fucking rude.

Really eye-opening on here the number of people who don't feel able to speak out, for reasons of being diplomatic, keeping the peace, maintaining good community relations, preserving their business. And I get it, I really do, I would be very wary in some situations. It's just depressing how much we have been silenced. Bravo thricefold to JKR.

@crashbandicootwarped

See reading threads like this has made me glad I started discussing things very early with my girls. I'm hoping that my feminism has rubbed off enough to stick as they get older.

Up until she started college, DD was a proud RadFem. Even borrowed my ‘woman:ahf’ t shirt.

A few weeks into her A levels she did a total volte face. She also shaved her head and pierced her nose. It’s all rebellion.

If you have been brought up to believe that people care about what you think, maybe it's difficult to comprehend that if your rights are restricted, it won't be because somebody cares about what is going on inside your head.

I thought this was a really interesting point. Many young ppl have been told through their whole life that their voice matters, that their feelings are valid & important and that their opinions should be listened to. Not every young person has this experience but lots have.

So it's not that surprising that lots of young ppl have come to the view that people's internal feelings about themselves are what matters most and other things should fall in around that.

The other side of that coin is that if you give your opinion and make your feelings known, it's still possible that others will disagree and your views won't be acted on. They will hopefully be taken into account but could ultimately could have no effect. Because other ppl also have feelings, opinions, and experiences too. And ppl will disagree with you.

I wouldn't want to give up the first thing - children should expect their opinions & feelings to be listened to. But we need to do better at helping them negotiate the other bit.

I hope all goes well OP. I haven't got any pearls of wisdom except its generally better to keep communication open.

It’s all rebellion.

No it’s not. It’s all conformity to their peer group.

crash indeed - she’s just as unsafe as any other female.

One big topic that’s helped me talk to my 13yo is how a lot of girls are identifying as boys because they feel it’ll make them safer from the shit they have to put up with in school, and on the streets, from men. Sadly she’s already had enough bad experiences that she understands this quite clearly :(

@Manderleyagain

If you have been brought up to believe that people care about what you think, maybe it's difficult to comprehend that if your rights are restricted, it won't be because somebody cares about what is going on inside your head.

I thought this was a really interesting point. Many young ppl have been told through their whole life that their voice matters, that their feelings are valid & important and that their opinions should be listened to. Not every young person has this experience but lots have.

So it's not that surprising that lots of young ppl have come to the view that people's internal feelings about themselves are what matters most and other things should fall in around that.

The other side of that coin is that if you give your opinion and make your feelings known, it's still possible that others will disagree and your views won't be acted on. They will hopefully be taken into account but could ultimately could have no effect. Because other ppl also have feelings, opinions, and experiences too. And ppl will disagree with you.

I wouldn't want to give up the first thing - children should expect their opinions & feelings to be listened to. But we need to do better at helping them negotiate the other bit.

I hope all goes well OP. I haven't got any pearls of wisdom except its generally better to keep communication open.

Hear hear to this^

Has the son's sex-shifting, unsafe-feeling little friend ever been given a lift home by his parents on the basis of biology, I wonder?

I was talking about it with DH this morning again.

It’s a weird religious fervour that nobody really believes. But everybody is too scared of backlash to disagree. It is exactly like enforced religion. We are heretics for openly challenging it, but almost no one actually believes it’s true. Like most Christians don’t actually literally believe the wafers and wine are the body and blood of Christ.

No one actually believes human beings can change sex but we’re not allowed to say it out loud.

That comment about not feeling safe brought this Julue Bindel / Jenni Murry clip to mind. "You don't know you're born."

I would be hurt, pissed off and frustrated OP. I don't know how these woke younger people will get on in the real world,unless they can stay in their bubbles forevermore.

Sorry, haven’t RTFT, but intrigued by the comment by your teenager that people can change sex overnight.

Me too. I don't agree with gender fluidity as I don't believe in gender as a concept BUT I can deal with others thinking differently and believing you can change how you align your gender. To deny biological reality though and think that someone can change sex overnight is absolutely ridiculous to me.

A few weeks into her A levels she did a total volte face. She also shaved her head and pierced her nose. It’s all rebellion.

I do wonder if rebellion plays a part, obviously they think no generation before them has felt like their views are correct and those of their parents aren't. I wonder if lockdown and probably more time online etc has exasperated it for many.

My advice write down everything that was said and in 25 years when his teen kids are behaving like this remind him what arses most teens are.

For the moment don't engage but laugh sarcastically when he comes out with woke shit and tell him you'll see him on the other side in 10 years.

My ds was a smug b in his twenties. He's lovely now.

I would have gone nuts too. Luckily DS and I agree on almost everything.

Oh lord. I refuse to have these discussions with any of my teens.
My 15 year old dad says that it is actually frowned upon to be straight amongst her peers. She says they are desperately trying to be bi/ lesbian or non binary and most of them are utterly miserable because of it.
What a load of bollocks.

Dad?🧐dd