I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

I'm sorry you had to come to ideological blows with your DS. Eddie's offensive mode crap had me in tears yesterday, but then I'm recovering from Covid and am feeling sensitive. Such a fucking affront.
I'm hoping that my own DC, having seen the awful personal tragedy that is their cousin's trans journey, will be fortified against the social pressure to conform. They have seen their lovely cousin suffer so much, and perversely also massively influenced by the pressure to conform and being shamed out of detransitioning. It's been close to 10 years of identifying as several different things, navigating comorbidities, referrals, medical pathways, regret, regret shaming and being policed by online community, redoubled effort, and now finally date set for surgical removal of healthy body parts.

I am the owner of another one of the few teens (18) who doesn't subscribe to all this stuff. She even wrote to our MP over the gender recognition act consultation last year.

Another hand hold.

I am lucky enough to have a tern who couldn’t come up with an answer for how people change sex. So doesn’t believe this is possible. They understand exactly the sex discrimination i and my mother and husband’s mother have experienced and realises that equality isn’t yet reached and that males (many who have had privileges throughout life due to their sex) should not be able to access rights.

We don’t discuss it anymore, as it causes them anxiety to discuss it knowing they have to keep a pretense as such to keep their friends. My teen supports their trans friends (it is most of their group) but I think they understand how much of it is based on perception and not reality.

I would say to my DS, “it’s fine, you can hold whatever opinions you like in your own house that you own. But if you don’t want to respect my opinions in the home that is my house then I would seriously start thinking about where you are going to live when you finish education, because surely you wouldn’t want to me a big hypocrite and take the easy route of free WiFi, free board and lodgings, etc from such a hateful person that I am.”

I would not tolerate the lack of respect for any adult anyway. The jumped up little know-nothing. He doesn’t have to agree with you, he has to respect you and not shout you down.

I left home at 18 because I couldn’t tolerate my alcoholic mother, and absolutely made it my mission to escape and be free. If your son feels you are so hateful let him work his way to freedom.

If my child didn’t grow out of this phase by the time they reached 21 I would be cutting the apron strings and hoping a big dose of the real world sorts them out. No way will
I live with another adult who can talk to me like shit just because we share the same DNA.

I know from my arguments with my mother (zillions of years ago) that one day I get where she's coming from. Your argument may sow seeds of doubt but you would be the last person he would admit that too.

I would calm the waters, apologise for calling him names and also expect an apology from him. And hold off on discussing this in the future.

So your own children are allowed to yell ,call you names, and disrespect you in your house, where you pay the bills and presumably cooked dinner.
Yet you are supposed to tolerate this (as well as their unsupported views) for fear of alienating teenagers?

Of course you are quite right to put your foot down, being teenager is not a pass for verbally attacking your parents, and l am often shocked that so many parents seem to think it is.
Not in my home.
Lively debate is good and healthy, but rudeness will not be tolerated.

Like most my age, l struggle to understand why calm acceptance of others sexuality, views, and what they identify as, is not good enough.
I am so fed up with the endless debate about this, l don't feel the need to scream loudly about my sexuality, to BE RECOGNISED !!, and really could't care less about anyone else's.

No, I genuinely do think it's abusive and crappy to shout insulting names at your children.

It worries me that so many of you have rearranged your priorities that even your children are fair game for abusive treatment if they disagree with you.

You will reap fractured relationships with your children. They may be unwilling to forgive and forget memories of being yelled 'You little shit' etc at when they, as all young people do, express popular views zealously. Lot of damaged people on the Stately Homes thread carrying similar wounds.

That sounds really difficult.
My DCs are younger, oldest is 13, and I'm openly GC, we talk about it a lot and they agree with me. I'm well aware the time will come when they know so much more than me though.
DS1 already calls me a boomer (I'm a xennial and proud). I was exactly the same with my parents.
Having said that, DC3 has a child in their class who's younger sibling (I think they're 4) has decided that they are the opposite sex and is being affirmed by parents, which I find quite disturbing.
DC3 who is 7, tells me they'll grow out of it!

I like the idea of coming out. Say you've thought about the discussion and decided you must be non-binary. You've rejected female gender stereotypes for years. Therefore you will no longer answer to mum on days you don't feel like it. Or do any wife work on one of your "boy" days. I'd suggest these coincide when they need you to remind them about something or do something for them.

No teens here yet, thankfully.

I think the stance is that we don't understand the biology and progress has been made in our understanding of sex. But it's not like our understanding of sex gradually evolved. It was the same for thousand and thousands of years. 10 years ago no one thought people literally changed sex, even those who transitioned. What was this great piece of research or breakthrough that suddenly made people realise humans could in fact change sex?

The only reason my teens don't go there with us in the same way is that they know we are completely out of our depth and would say something inappropriate in the first minute of the row. I don't even try to pretend I understand. You sound like you have some understanding which is probably not a blessing in your case.

Don't complain about people with differing views being nasty to you. You have been very nasty yourself and even now are just licking your wounds rather than taking a good hard look at what you are teaching your kids about handling disagreement.

No, there is no way to tell your mother that sex is irrelevant, without sounding like a bit of an idiot. The 'I just have a different view' defence really doesn't work.

The only option is to hope for forgiveness and understanding, taking into account age and lack of experience.

The OP is quite open about being the one to escalate the abusive behaviour. I don't think her children should have to tolerate it because she cooked the meal. She's the parent. If she behaves abusively to a 18 year old she needn't expect them to think "Of course I cannot respond in a similar tone because I am the child here and my meal has been cooked". That would be a rather coercive dynamic.

She can lay off the abusive behaviour and see what happens. She's noted that her DP was related to differently because he was calm and asked questions. That suggests to me that they were simply responding to her in the tone that she had introduced. They do have an excuse in that they're young and it's stressful to be called awful names by your mum at that age. They're going to justify themselves strongly. They're in an impossible position.

@betterfantasia

No, I genuinely do think it's abusive and crappy to shout insulting names at your children.

It worries me that so many of you have rearranged your priorities that even your children are fair game for abusive treatment if they disagree with you.

You will reap fractured relationships with your children. They may be unwilling to forgive and forget memories of being yelled 'You little shit' etc at when they, as all young people do, express popular views zealously. Lot of damaged people on the Stately Homes thread carrying similar wounds.

Stately Homes is about a lot more than being called a shit during an argument and it's offensive to suggest otherwise.

I'm well aware the time will come when they know so much more than me though.

I don't think this is true.

There are life stages that it is impossible to comprehend without experience.

I don't understand your first paragraph, merry. The I just have a different view approach doesn't work? Eh?

@BillMasen

I’m a straight middle aged man so a bit of an outsider to both the feminist and trans sides. I’m broadly GC though.

I have kids and do worry about phases they might go though of identifying differently. Even at 10/11/12 years old they know and have friends who identify differently.

TWAM, biologically, clearly. I can see how kids and teens may feel they’re on the side of fairness and us oldies are not. Some of the language can make if feel like that too (the poster who said what their racist parent said in the 80s does sound similar to a lot of the arguments used now, especially if you’re a fired up teen)

I think the job of parent can be to not escalate arguments sometimes. We don’t always have to win, and even if they’re absolutely clearly wrong, maybe it’s best to keep lines of communication open.

Perfect apologise. Not for your views but your language.

And ffs, I know this is mumsnet, home of the instant LTB, but posters advising throwing kids out because they have different views should fuck right off

He's not a child. At 18 he's legally an adult - unless, I suppose, he identifies as a toddler.

DS16 is gay and very woke. We’ve had a few disagreements but he gets really upset about people being abused, including women. So he’s ended up in tears when I’ve said about the abuse women have suffered and he’s said lgbt suffer too and I say yes, that doesn’t mean they need to share spaces etc. But generally I let him say what he wants and just let it wash over because I don’t like conflict. My dbro was mentally ill and there would be many a tea time argument when we were teens where he was trying to convert us to his way of thinking and it was all very uncomfortable.
The reality is a huge proportion of the kids in my ds’s year are lgbt (the t are all biological females) and all happily doing their thing and a million miles away from the agp. Dd14 is just a bit eye roll about it when he starts and her year group are much more straight binary!
I’d just leave them to it.

He said afterwards that there’s no substance to the argument, that’s why they have to shout loudly about it.

I've just watched the footage from Portsmouth Reclaim these Streets protest yesterday and came to the exact same conclusion. They cannot just ignore women who know what a woman is, because it challenges their whole religion.

Did you miss the start

DS aged 18 started laying into the OP

What should she do? Lie down and take it?

Talk calmly and rationally to someone who is not prepared to engage with reason but instead " lay in" to someone ?

Walk away and let them carry on
promoting an ideology that is dangerous?

Good people who do not challenge harm are not truly good people, they allow evil to prevail

Sometimes you have to fight back . And that means fight

Game theory. Act nice and copperatively to start but stop if it does not work

I like said earlier that I had huge arguments with my father in my teens about politics and the sexist rubbish he would come out with. Thinking back though I would not have dared to call him names or be abusive. He would have told me to move out. There was always a limit as to how far I could push it.

God that's awful OP. I teach teenagers and they are such ducking know it all's and are blind that the oodles more life experiences that adults (usually women) have. Patriarchy starts young and teenagers see middle aged women as irrelevant and invisible.

Would it help to say, like 99.9% of teenagers and their views, he will grow out of it? He will be reading bollocks online to fuel his illogical nonsense, bare in mind he probably knows what nonsense he splits.

Oh and FWIW, your house is YOUR house. No one is entitled to be part of it or welcomed into and if his GIRLfriend doesn't feel welcome coming round then tough shite.

Stately Homes is about a lot more than being called a shit during an argument and it's offensive to suggest otherwise.

It is often about being name called and yelled at by a parent simply for holding a different view. That is traumatising and abusive. It is offensive to suggest otherwise.

They're angry because they know their ideology is based on mantras not facts. It's absurd to claim humans can change sex and they know it. None so arrogant as a straight white bloke.

Urgh I'd be tempted to kick him out. Rude little shit. You're the enemy who pays the bills.

And the reason that he was angrier with you than your husband is because women are demonised by the TRAs because we're the ones speaking up against this toxic ideology in the main.