I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

I asked why this means I shouldn't respect my pupils pronouns

I'm not interested in whether or not you do or don't respect any individual's pronouns. Thinking about it has occupied zero percent of my time on this thread, as this thread is not about you and your pupils.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I asked why this means I shouldn't respect my pupils pronouns

I'm not interested in whether or not you do or don't respect any individual's pronouns. Thinking about it has occupied zero percent of my time on this thread, as this thread is not about you and your pupils.

No it's just about you.

And random rapists in court.

So, whose pronouns should be respected? Nobody's?

A non answer.

No it isn't. You are talking about something different, or you haven't grasped the point. I'm talking about the fact that people shouldn't expect other people to validate their self-image.

If you call me Becky, whether I like it is immaterial. You have the free choice to do so, however I feel. However much silly posturing I do about you "not being in a position to decide" not to use my name. It's bluster. I have zero control over whether you decide to do it, which doesn't mean I'm happy and doesn't mean there might not be consequences for you later.

No it's just about you.

No it's not about me either. It's about OP and her family.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

A non answer.

No it isn't. You are talking about something different, or you haven't grasped the point. I'm talking about the fact that people shouldn't expect other people to validate their self-image.

If you call me Becky, whether I like it is immaterial. You have the free choice to do so, however I feel. However much silly posturing I do about you "not being in a position to decide" not to use my name. It's bluster. I have zero control over whether you decide to do it, which doesn't mean I'm happy and doesn't mean there might not be consequences for you later.

Consequences? Being what?

Someone upthread uses the ridiculous example of an abuser.

So I put to you a teenager who just wants you to refer to them as they rather than she.

Would you? If not why not, and is that reason more important than theirs?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No it's just about you.

No it's not about me either. It's about OP and her family.

On this occasion, OP thinks it's all ridiculous.

What if this was an OP wanting people to use the pronouns? Would your views change?

Thought not.

The point is, still, you have zero control over how people talk about you. If people decide not to use their energy validating your gender feels by respecting your pronouns, there's very little you can do. So perhaps it would be wiser to base your self worth on something else?

Your analogy is also pretty silly, as you are deliberately calling me the wrong name, that has nothing to do with me. Using the correct sex pronouns to speak about someone to someone else, accidentally or deliberately, isn't comparable.

On this occasion, OP thinks it's all ridiculous.

So do most people in this country who aren't directly involved. Do you get that? Not sure why you think that's remarkable.

It's about asking others to be respectful

That's not what you implied earlier when asked what rights trans people don't have that others do. Your (only) answer was being addressed by their preferred pronouns. Not as a matter of respect but as a "right" - one which no-one else has.

When we are asked to describe someone else we do so on the basis of how we perceive them. It's not incumbent on anyone to describe someone how they wish to be perceived.

We may of course choose to temper our descriptions to be kind but we are not compelled to do so.

Furthermore people should not be faced with a situation where people are fearful for accurately describing an individual's characteristics as opposed to how that individual wishes to be perceived. That's coercion not respect.

You can't control how people "see" you. It doesn't matter if it's about how old you look, your weight, your sex or any aspect of your personality.

People are perfectly at liberty to form their own individual opinion about you. You might not like it but you don't get to police what other people think of you.

You can ask people to use your preferred pronouns but you don't get to dictate that they do - an example of which being the OP's son only "hitting the mark" 50% of the time when discussing his GF.

Personally I see no merit in being deliberately provocative and deliberately mis-gendering all trans people to prove a point, but as stated previously I absolutely draw the line at being compelled to "respect" the pronouns of people who have no respect for me as a woman or actively advocate/perpetuate violence and targeted harassment against women.

If pronouns is a matter of respect then it should be mutual.

The point is, still, you have zero control over how people talk about you. If people decide not to use their energy validating your gender feels by respecting your pronouns, there's very little you can do. So perhaps it would be wiser to base your self worth on something else?

This. People need to realise that they won't be validated 100% of the time. Not everyone is going to do it.

Someone upthread uses the ridiculous example of an abuser.

It's really not ridiculous. It's a real scenario in terms of a woman having been assaulted by a TRA and penalised by the judge because she wouldn't call a male she.

Why do you think it wouldn't happen like that?

So I put to you a teenager who just wants you to refer to them as they rather than she.

Would you? If not why not, and is that reason more important than theirs?

Whether it is or it isn't, it's still up to me.

good post zeev. the same freedom of choice should be afforded to everyone - you to choose your identity, me to choose my language. my choices might offend you and your choices might offend me. thats freedom.

@JensonsAcolyte

The whole pronoun game always makes me think of that test/game where you have a list of colour names, all in different (wrong) colours, and you have to say the colour not the word.

It’s really hard to do.

Ditto!

Well, the emotional cost to someone to just use a pronoun is not a lot

That's a huge assumption and says a lot about how much you value so-called "cis" identities versus trans ones.

I'm female, in the the old fashioned, cunty sense of the word. I've been female all my life, so since birth I've been "She" and "Her".

My conception of myself as a woman is (1) a female body, which just is, (2) having to deal with a whole load of society-driven shit that comes with the female body, most of which I don't want which is why I'm a feminist, and (3).... nope, that's it. Anything else that is Me is nothing to do with being a woman. There's no un-bodied female identity, there's just the reality of the body and the stuff society loads on top of it.

But when a male-bodied person asserts that they are also "She", they are asserting that they and I have something in common that is not (because it cannot) be based in the body. And that's a problem for me, because I don't have that thing. Whatever it is the male-bodied person thinks we have in common that makes us both "She", we don't.

Now, I'm not saying I am the "She" and they are not. Perhaps they are the "She" and it's me that's wrong about being a woman. But I've been a "She" all my life. I don't have another pronoun, another identity to move to. Maybe one day I will, but surely that should be something that comes from me, not imposed upon me because someone wants to inhabit that identity I already have? And even if I do, I'll still have the female body and all the society-driven shit that came with it.

So we are at an impasse. I can call the male-bodied person "He" and misgender them, or I can call them "She" and misgender myself. This is the "emotional cost" to me - lying about who I am to validate someone else.

Of course in day to day life, that's what I'll do because it's courteous and kind, and one of those society-driven shit bits about being a woman is being socialised to hurt ourselves like that.

But when someone demands it, when they say it's "no cost" to me because they place so little value on my identity, my life experience and my right to tell my own story? Hell no!

@Blibbyblobby

Well, the emotional cost to someone to just use a pronoun is not a lot

That's a huge assumption and says a lot about how much you value so-called "cis" identities versus trans ones.

I'm female, in the the old fashioned, cunty sense of the word. I've been female all my life, so since birth I've been "She" and "Her".

My conception of myself as a woman is (1) a female body, which just is, (2) having to deal with a whole load of society-driven shit that comes with the female body, most of which I don't want which is why I'm a feminist, and (3).... nope, that's it. Anything else that is Me is nothing to do with being a woman. There's no un-bodied female identity, there's just the reality of the body and the stuff society loads on top of it.

But when a male-bodied person asserts that they are also "She", they are asserting that they and I have something in common that is not (because it cannot) be based in the body. And that's a problem for me, because I don't have that thing. Whatever it is the male-bodied person thinks we have in common that makes us both "She", we don't.

Now, I'm not saying I am the "She" and they are not. Perhaps they are the "She" and it's me that's wrong about being a woman. But I've been a "She" all my life. I don't have another pronoun, another identity to move to. Maybe one day I will, but surely that should be something that comes from me, not imposed upon me because someone wants to inhabit that identity I already have? And even if I do, I'll still have the female body and all the society-driven shit that came with it.

So we are at an impasse. I can call the male-bodied person "He" and misgender them, or I can call them "She" and misgender myself. This is the "emotional cost" to me - lying about who I am to validate someone else.

Of course in day to day life, that's what I'll do because it's courteous and kind, and one of those society-driven shit bits about being a woman is being socialised to hurt ourselves like that.

But when someone demands it, when they say it's "no cost" to me because they place so little value on my identity, my life experience and my right to tell my own story? Hell no!

👏👏👏

Excellent post @Blibbyblobby

@Blibbyblobby that’s a fantastic post. You have summed up perfectly how I feel about all of this but could never find the words to express. Thank you.

Nailed it, blibbyblobby.

Ànother YY to @blibbyblobby

It will never become mandatory.

It already is in British Courts. If your male attacker now identities as a woman , you will be compelled to refer to this person as " she" in court .

[quote MyBug]@Blibbyblobby that’s a fantastic post. You have summed up perfectly how I feel about all of this but could never find the words to express. Thank you.[/quote]
This! Thank you @Blibbyblobby 💐

@Blibbyblobby

Well, the emotional cost to someone to just use a pronoun is not a lot

That's a huge assumption and says a lot about how much you value so-called "cis" identities versus trans ones.

I'm female, in the the old fashioned, cunty sense of the word. I've been female all my life, so since birth I've been "She" and "Her".

My conception of myself as a woman is (1) a female body, which just is, (2) having to deal with a whole load of society-driven shit that comes with the female body, most of which I don't want which is why I'm a feminist, and (3).... nope, that's it. Anything else that is Me is nothing to do with being a woman. There's no un-bodied female identity, there's just the reality of the body and the stuff society loads on top of it.

But when a male-bodied person asserts that they are also "She", they are asserting that they and I have something in common that is not (because it cannot) be based in the body. And that's a problem for me, because I don't have that thing. Whatever it is the male-bodied person thinks we have in common that makes us both "She", we don't.

Now, I'm not saying I am the "She" and they are not. Perhaps they are the "She" and it's me that's wrong about being a woman. But I've been a "She" all my life. I don't have another pronoun, another identity to move to. Maybe one day I will, but surely that should be something that comes from me, not imposed upon me because someone wants to inhabit that identity I already have? And even if I do, I'll still have the female body and all the society-driven shit that came with it.

So we are at an impasse. I can call the male-bodied person "He" and misgender them, or I can call them "She" and misgender myself. This is the "emotional cost" to me - lying about who I am to validate someone else.

Of course in day to day life, that's what I'll do because it's courteous and kind, and one of those society-driven shit bits about being a woman is being socialised to hurt ourselves like that.

But when someone demands it, when they say it's "no cost" to me because they place so little value on my identity, my life experience and my right to tell my own story? Hell no!

Yes!

@Blibbyblobby

Well, the emotional cost to someone to just use a pronoun is not a lot

That's a huge assumption and says a lot about how much you value so-called "cis" identities versus trans ones.

I'm female, in the the old fashioned, cunty sense of the word. I've been female all my life, so since birth I've been "She" and "Her".

My conception of myself as a woman is (1) a female body, which just is, (2) having to deal with a whole load of society-driven shit that comes with the female body, most of which I don't want which is why I'm a feminist, and (3).... nope, that's it. Anything else that is Me is nothing to do with being a woman. There's no un-bodied female identity, there's just the reality of the body and the stuff society loads on top of it.

But when a male-bodied person asserts that they are also "She", they are asserting that they and I have something in common that is not (because it cannot) be based in the body. And that's a problem for me, because I don't have that thing. Whatever it is the male-bodied person thinks we have in common that makes us both "She", we don't.

Now, I'm not saying I am the "She" and they are not. Perhaps they are the "She" and it's me that's wrong about being a woman. But I've been a "She" all my life. I don't have another pronoun, another identity to move to. Maybe one day I will, but surely that should be something that comes from me, not imposed upon me because someone wants to inhabit that identity I already have? And even if I do, I'll still have the female body and all the society-driven shit that came with it.

So we are at an impasse. I can call the male-bodied person "He" and misgender them, or I can call them "She" and misgender myself. This is the "emotional cost" to me - lying about who I am to validate someone else.

Of course in day to day life, that's what I'll do because it's courteous and kind, and one of those society-driven shit bits about being a woman is being socialised to hurt ourselves like that.

But when someone demands it, when they say it's "no cost" to me because they place so little value on my identity, my life experience and my right to tell my own story? Hell no!

Well written, and I can see it, but I just don't agree.

Calling someone else she does not make you any less she.

You are not defined by your sex. We are not a species.

The problem with this argument is you are all thinking in terms of the extremest- men on Twitter or in courts.

I am looking at real life young people in front of me.