I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

@334bu

*It will never become mandatory.*

It already is in British Courts. If your male attacker now identities as a woman , you will be compelled to refer to this person as " she" in court .

Extremes, again.

It either is or it isn’t. Obliging women to do this in court would imply that it is.

@toffeebutterpopcorn

It either is or it isn’t. Obliging women to do this in court would imply that it is.

A court of law is different.

And on that note, how often does this happen?

Often enough to warrant us denying teenagers (the point of this thread, and my daily reality) their pronouns?

Also, taking this at face value, those refusing to use pronouns are now saying they will do it In court for criminals but not for people who just want to be themselves.

One judge in a court is enough.

@toffeebutterpopcorn

One judge in a court is enough.

Enough to what?

Butiwas from what my ds says it seems most transgender teens are ftm, is that what you’ve found?
We’re concerned about male bodies invading female spaces but the majority in reality seems to be young females struggling with their identities and so how can we support them as females needing support and validation?

You asked how often it happens (where someone is obliged/threatened) once in a court of law is more than enough.

What happened to ‘be kind’? How was it ‘kind’ to make a woman who had been beaten up by a male bodied person refer to her assailant as ‘she’
In court? The attack was made on the basis of sex.

@Karwomannghia

Butiwas from what my ds says it seems most transgender teens are ftm, is that what you’ve found? We’re concerned about male bodies invading female spaces but the majority in reality seems to be young females struggling with their identities and so how can we support them as females needing support and validation?

Yes, overwhelmingly.

And this is why I get annoyed on these threads.

It's a double edged sword. People are insisting you can't change sex, you can't change identify, we aren't using your pronouns, we are women, we've had enough, etc etc.

So by their theory, my youngster is still a female. But they don't care about the emotions, feelings or needs about this person because they've chosen to identify as a boy.

In my day to day life I use pronouns and changed names. The 'oh but it's so DIFFICULT' drives me potty.

I'm an atheist. I think in some ways religion has caused mayhem. I don't, however, walk about wringing my hands at people who are religious and refuse to affirm their beliefs because mine are more important.

People have truly lost sight. They are dreading these stupid debates on twitter and looking at extremists and they are forgetting about these youngsters. And when they remember them, it's only to feign concern at them and claim they must need professional help and how they too are being dragged into this dark vacuum (seen that one before ).

People are who they are and people need to respect it. Connecting everything anyone says to courts and rape and abuse is emotive, unfair, power play.

@toffeebutterpopcorn

You asked how often it happens (where someone is obliged/threatened) once in a court of law is more than enough.

What happened to ‘be kind’? How was it ‘kind’ to make a woman who had been beaten up by a male bodied person refer to her assailant as ‘she’
In court? The attack was made on the basis of sex.

It isn't.

I've already said I don't agree with that.

But is this relatively rare occurrence enough to wipe out pronouns full stop forever?

I'm not engaging with this dull derailing any further.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm not engaging with this dull derailing any further.

Two posters currently in conversation about the use of pronouns on a thread about the use of pronouns is derailing.

I see the usual MN use of this word to signify no, that doesn't suit my agenda, has returned.
Okaydokey.

they are forgetting about these youngsters. And when they remember them, it's only to feign concern at them

Forgetting about them? A child and young person I’ve known from infancy? You think it’s ‘feigning concern’ to think that a mastectomy at 18 was a fucking stupid idea?

I know you don’t know our circumstances but at least don’t assume that everyone is coming at this from a position of ignorance or has been stirred up by this website.

@DodoPatrol

they are forgetting about these youngsters. And when they remember them, it's only to feign concern at them

Forgetting about them? A child and young person I’ve known from infancy? You think it’s ‘feigning concern’ to think that a mastectomy at 18 was a fucking stupid idea?

Again, that's a personal experience. Obviously you would care about that , and I can't possibly know that. But it's a personal story, and not indicative of the wider debate (or the wider statistics, as these guys are quick to tell you, surgery is extremely rare)

I'm not saying nobody cares ever. It's not black and white. I'm saying that on these threads, refusing to use pronouns under the umbrella of concern for the young person is deceitful.

Sorry - they.

@DodoPatrol

I know you don’t know our circumstances but at least don’t assume that everyone is coming at this from a position of ignorance or has been stirred up by this website.

I don't assume everyone feels like that.

I'm referring directly to the posters I have seen in action on these threads, because that's my experience.

Right. Thank you. Especially given my unusual level of sweariness.

It doesn’t help much to know that surgery is ‘rare’ once it’s happened though. That and the now broken voice are side effects lifelong of something that yes, I do think was a reaction to stressful life events mid-teens, combined with a very trendy school.

Extremes, again.

Being kind to your child is one thing but making the use of preferred pronouns mandatory will result in extreme cases, such as assault victims being forced to describe their male attackers as " she". So what do you want?

This thread is not "about the use of pronouns". It's a thread about the difficulty of arguing with loved ones about the whole issue.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

This thread is not "about the use of pronouns". It's a thread about the difficulty of arguing with loved ones about the whole issue.

Right. But you, as a regular user, will know that threads move on. If it had moved on in a direction you agreed with, you'd be all over it.

This is odd behaviour. Engage or don't, but we don't need a departure announcement.

I don't think it needs to be mandatory. I think people can and should use common sense and basic respect.

Dodo sorry if I’m being stupid or insensitive but are you talking about your child who had surgery and now wants to detransition? Must be very difficult.

@DodoPatrol

Right. Thank you. Especially given my unusual level of sweariness.

It doesn’t help much to know that surgery is ‘rare’ once it’s happened though. That and the now broken voice are side effects lifelong of something that yes, I do think was a reaction to stressful life events mid-teens, combined with a very trendy school.

You're alright, I can see why I annoyed you.

I totally understand that.

Fwiw, I'm not a fan of any medication or anything like that, but I do think pronouns should be used. I appreciate that's an unpopular opinion.

@Karwomannghia

Dodo sorry if I’m being stupid or insensitive but are you talking about your child who had surgery and now wants to detransition? Must be very difficult.

Not my bio child but close family.

I'm not going anywhere, if there is anything interesting or pertinent posted I will respond.