I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

Of course I don't have an issue with pronouns. Why would I?

Well , what if you were a rape victim being forced in court to use female pronouns when describing what your attacker did to you , because that person says they identify as a woman? Would that not be a perfectly reasonable occasion to object to using someone's " preferred" pronouns?

@334bu

*Of course I don't have an issue with pronouns. Why would I?*

Well , what if you were a rape victim being forced in court to use female pronouns when describing what your attacker did to you , because that person says they identify as a woman? Would that not be a perfectly reasonable occasion to object to using someone's " preferred" pronouns?

Yes.

But this isn't what is being discussed here. Why do we always jump to that scenario?

Should my teens in my workplace suffer because of this scenario?

Well, the emotional cost to someone to just use a pronoun is not a lot

You are in no position to make that call for someone else.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Well, the emotional cost to someone to just use a pronoun is not a lot

You are in no position to make that call for someone else.

And you aren't in a position to decide you won't use someone's pronoun.

Yes, I am. I will use whatever language I like. Don't be ridiculous.

You don't own the language others use.

It's quite striking how much this is about controlling others.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's quite striking how much this is about controlling others.

Not really.

It's about asking others to be respectful.

It's the equivalent of you saying hi my name Jennifer.

Nah sorry, I'm going to call you Becky.

You cant control me

I can't, no. Don't you understand that? It's not within my control what words you use.

We are discussing whether the use of " preferred " pronouns is a " right" If it is a " right" then it becomes mandatory in all circumstances, even those where their use will cause harm to others, as in the case of a rape victim being forced to describe her male attacker as " she".

Not really.

Yes, really.

We are discussing whether the use of " preferred " pronouns is a " right" If it is a " right" then it becomes mandatory in all circumstances, even those where their use will cause harm to others, as in the case of a rape victim being forced to describe her male attacker as " she".

Oh don't use that example, it's very inconvenient for pronoun fans. How inconsiderate of you.

@BrizzleGirl So sorry to hear about your experience with your son. I've had a similar one with mine that age. It's sad, because we used to have lively political discussions about all sorts of things but when he became woke, he turned really arrogant and nasty. It wasn't acceptable any more to simply disagree, you were a bigot, etc. I'm hoping one day he grows out of it - your son too.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I can't, no. Don't you understand that? It's not within my control what words you use.

So you'd be fine with someone calling you whatever name they fancy?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Don't be a dickhead

Backatcha. It is inconvenient because extreme or not, it is the logical endpoint of pandering to denial of people's sex. How would it not happen?

But can you not get that it's different in different circumstances?

So you'd be fine with someone calling you whatever name they fancy?

How I feel is not the point. The point is that I have no control over their actions, I can't stop the words exiting their mouth.

@RadandMad do you "grow out if things" in your thirties? He's not having kids so he will never see it from the father of a daughter point of view.

How did I go so radically wrong? The child of a staunch feminist? Luckily his GF seems to be GC, so maybe there is hope ...

It's just an extreme example and if you read very carefully, youl see my response.

It's an example of coerced speech . If someone wishes me to refer to them in a particular way , I would probably do so. However, as soon as it becomes mandatory things change and this unfortunately results in some victims of violence being forced to call their male attackers " she" in court, if that person says they identify as a woman.

But can you not get that it's different in different circumstances?

Do you not get that non sex based pronouns wouldn't be conditional on whether someone was an alleged criminal?

This faux posturing of yours is very dull.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

But can you not get that it's different in different circumstances?

Do you not get that non sex based pronouns wouldn't be conditional on whether someone was an alleged criminal?

This faux posturing of yours is very dull.

I am not being faux

I understand your point and agreed many posts ago that this would be wrong.

I asked why this means I shouldn't respect my pupils pronouns, given they are not in court. You don't seem to have an answer for that.

@334bu

*It's just an extreme example and if you read very carefully, youl see my response.*

It's an example of coerced speech . If someone wishes me to refer to them in a particular way , I would probably do so. However, as soon as it becomes mandatory things change and this unfortunately results in some victims of violence being forced to call their male attackers " she" in court, if that person says they identify as a woman.

It will never become mandatory.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

So you'd be fine with someone calling you whatever name they fancy?

How I feel is not the point. The point is that I have no control over their actions, I can't stop the words exiting their mouth.

A non answer.

You are Mrs Hayley Smith.

Is it fine that I call you Miss Becky Jones?