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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

999 replies

JensonsAcolyte · 28/03/2021 08:45

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

OP posts:
waterlego · 02/04/2021 20:56

Eh, the right to have their pronouns respected. Yknow the point of the thread

Having one’s pronouns respected is a matter of courtesy, not rights. Incidentally, it is a courtesy I afford to people (unless they were being an aggressive arsehole about it).

But wider than that , PPs are trying to claim that these threads are not full of women's rights over trans. Which is nonsense.

So this is why I asked you about the rights that trans people don’t have and you went back to pronouns.

FWR threads are not full of posters asserting women’s rights over trans rights. Just asserting women’s rights, full stop. The clue is in the name of the board.

MrsGogolsGumbo · 02/04/2021 20:59

I have completely lost my patience and can't even come up with something coherent to write.

It's my right and you're trampling on it!!

Um... it's not a right, there are no laws...

No but I want!!! Give me what I want!!! You're so meeeeean!!!

Facepalm!

Like the toddler that screams "I want a sandwich now! Now! NOW!!" but at least you expect behaviour like that from toddlers, you can sit them down and explain why you don't shout and rudely demand things from people and actually be listened to!

MrsGogolsGumbo · 02/04/2021 21:01

FWIW I respect pronouns etc but I do not engage with foot stomping rude people who demand stuff from women as a whole without listening and being respectful in return.

DeRigueurMortis · 02/04/2021 21:04

You stated that Trans people don't have the right to have their pronouns respected in response to being asked what rights they are missing.

What's being pointed out is that they have the same rights as everyone else.

I've worked and house-shared with TW. I chose to use their pronouns of choice because because they were as respectful of my experiences as a woman as I was of theirs as a TW.

Ive never misgendered anyone in real life.

However I reserve the right to do so and would state happily that I'd never choose to call a man who'd sexually assaulted a woman "she". Likewise anyone who calls me "cis" or "Terf" or uses violent language against women in general.

So no I don't set out to be unkind. I am courteous to people who are courteous to me in return.

Butwasitherdriveway · 02/04/2021 21:17

@MrsGogolsGumbo

I have completely lost my patience and can't even come up with something coherent to write.

It's my right and you're trampling on it!!

Um... it's not a right, there are no laws...

No but I want!!! Give me what I want!!! You're so meeeeean!!!

Facepalm!

Like the toddler that screams "I want a sandwich now! Now! NOW!!" but at least you expect behaviour like that from toddlers, you can sit them down and explain why you don't shout and rudely demand things from people and actually be listened to!

You have well described the many threads of women fuming about trans women in their toilets. Well done.
Butwasitherdriveway · 02/04/2021 21:18

@DeRigueurMortis

You stated that Trans people don't have the right to have their pronouns respected in response to being asked what rights they are missing.

What's being pointed out is that they have the same rights as everyone else.

I've worked and house-shared with TW. I chose to use their pronouns of choice because because they were as respectful of my experiences as a woman as I was of theirs as a TW.

Ive never misgendered anyone in real life.

However I reserve the right to do so and would state happily that I'd never choose to call a man who'd sexually assaulted a woman "she". Likewise anyone who calls me "cis" or "Terf" or uses violent language against women in general.

So no I don't set out to be unkind. I am courteous to people who are courteous to me in return.

I don't have a problem with that. Sadly all don't share your views.

I'm regularly called a TRA. Is that ok?

LastRoloIsMine · 02/04/2021 21:18

Oh Holy mother of Christ.

If my using pronouns correctly based on your sex sends you in to a crisis then I am sorry, genuinely so however it wouldn't be an issues longterm as I would not be in your company for long. If I am forced to be then I will avoid using sex specific pronouns altogether. Thats my compromise.

TRHR · 02/04/2021 21:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

GrumpyHoonMain · 02/04/2021 21:28

I hope you raised the casual sexism your DS displayed in accepted his dad’s opinions but arguing over yours. In my opinion? He absolutely has a problem with his girlfriend and is taking it out on you - people who are happy in relationships don’t tend to get into rows over nothing about them.

Biscuitsanddoombar · 02/04/2021 21:30

No person on this earth has ever changed sex. What they have is change their appearance (sometimes as remember a change of outward appearance is not required) to a facsimile of the opposite sex.

HelloDulling · 02/04/2021 21:33

@TRHR

Putting aside for a sec that disputing the reality of sex changes is a breach of the Equalities Act and runs contrary to the view basically every reputable physician... having your child's partner over for dinner is a breach of lockdown rules unless they live alone, which as a teen I doubt. What makes your household think you're special enough not to make the same sacrifices as the rest of us?
What part of the OP’s post makes you think the girlfriend was there? As I understand it, they were talked about, not there in person.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/04/2021 21:35

Putting aside for a sec that disputing the reality of sex changes is a breach of the Equalities Act

Point me to that bit in the Equality Act 2010?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/04/2021 21:38

You have well described the many threads of women fuming about trans women in their toilets. Well done.

Well no, because their boundaries are actually violated by the presence of a male person in a female space, so it's a perfectly reasonable expectation, not just "fuming". Why do you think we have female toilets exactly? Or do you think there should be no single sex facilities and everywhere should be open to anyone?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/04/2021 21:41

And some random teen asking for respected pronouns didn't do any of that. Did they?

The OP respects the young person's pronouns. The woke boyfriend can't even get them right consistently. The young person has a problem with the OP because she is "well known for being a TERF" according to her DS.

Helmetbymidnight · 02/04/2021 21:47

disputing the reality of sex changes is a breach of the Equalities Act

you what now?

what on earth are you trying to say here?

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 02/04/2021 21:47

disputing the reality of sex changes [...] runs contrary to the view basically every reputable physician

As a medical student I actually spent time shadowing psychiatrists at a GID clinic for adult transitioners and I can assure you that no one thought or even claimed to think that these people were actually changing sex. Everyone was very clear that it was at best a cosmetic procedure to help people in distress live as if they were the sex they wished to be - even the transitioners were clear on this. Sorry to break your heart.

Helmetbymidnight · 02/04/2021 21:56

i use prefered pronouns on sm otherwise id get deleted.
and id use them to avoid getting thrown out of somewhere or to avoid trouble, violence or threats (see sarah paulson)
i think their risible- and the more someone insists, the less im inclined to.
the fact that peoples identity relies on validation of others is pathetic. its the neediest thing ever.

IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk · 02/04/2021 21:58

You mean your lack of care of a bloody use of a word which makes zero difference to you but big difference to someone else, but you don't think you should, because you're right?

On what grounds have you decided it makes zero difference to others?

Why does it make such a difference to that other person? Why would they have any cognisance of the pronouns that are being used in relation to them in their absence? Are people now relying on constant monitoring by a third party?

I can't think of any many situations where a person would be aware of the pronouns I use when referring to them. If someone is in the room when I need to refer to them indirectly I would generally use their name. Why would this be an issue?

I do not feel comfortable using words that deliberately belie reality. By nature I always try and use the correct word for something I see. It goes against my nature to mislabel anything (as I get older I realise that I may have autistic traits which would explain a lot) - I enjoy precision especially in language.

How do you balance your perception of the emotional cost/benefit of specific pronoun use for the people involved on both sides?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/04/2021 22:05

You mean your lack of care of a bloody use of a word

No, I meant the complete lack of care for women and girls and other marginalised groups.

Butwasitherdriveway · 02/04/2021 22:49

@IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk

You mean your lack of care of a bloody use of a word which makes zero difference to you but big difference to someone else, but you don't think you should, because you're right?

On what grounds have you decided it makes zero difference to others?

Why does it make such a difference to that other person? Why would they have any cognisance of the pronouns that are being used in relation to them in their absence? Are people now relying on constant monitoring by a third party?

I can't think of any many situations where a person would be aware of the pronouns I use when referring to them. If someone is in the room when I need to refer to them indirectly I would generally use their name. Why would this be an issue?

I do not feel comfortable using words that deliberately belie reality. By nature I always try and use the correct word for something I see. It goes against my nature to mislabel anything (as I get older I realise that I may have autistic traits which would explain a lot) - I enjoy precision especially in language.

How do you balance your perception of the emotional cost/benefit of specific pronoun use for the people involved on both sides?

In my workplace I can think of many.

Well, the emotional cost to someone to just use a pronoun is not a lot, despite what they say about losing their beliefs (or in your case , precision in a language 🙄)

@Ereshkigalangcleg
That's all fine, but what does that have to do with using pronouns?

IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk · 02/04/2021 22:55

Well, the emotional cost to someone to just use a pronoun is not a lot, despite what they say about losing their beliefs (or in your case , precision in a language 🙄)

but this is the thing - how have you got any concept of what it costs someone to do that?

You clearly have no issue with it and that is fine. How are you able to do that but not equally understand why I can't?

Butwasitherdriveway · 02/04/2021 23:00

@IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk

Well, the emotional cost to someone to just use a pronoun is not a lot, despite what they say about losing their beliefs (or in your case , precision in a language 🙄)

but this is the thing - how have you got any concept of what it costs someone to do that?

You clearly have no issue with it and that is fine. How are you able to do that but not equally understand why I can't?

Because you haven't given me anything concrete. You like precision?
Butwasitherdriveway · 02/04/2021 23:01

Of course I don't have an issue with pronouns. Why would I?

waterlego · 02/04/2021 23:24

Because you haven't given me anything concrete. You don’t see the irony here?

Butwasitherdriveway · 02/04/2021 23:25

@waterlego

Because you haven't given me anything concrete. You don’t see the irony here?
No...??