I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

Handhold I’m 54 very straight female and proud of it. Sighs it’s getting ridiculous now this he she business.

I'm not interested in what difference it makes , it's not about you.

The point is though, you effectively are eradicating their identity. The fact that you 'allow' them to exist while refusing to accept their identity is a non starter.

The thing is though @ThePankhurstConnection I am not talking about the women who talk about their fears about women and feminism.

I'm talking about the ones who have claimed on this thread alone it is just too 'difficult' for their brain as the word doesn't match the person they see.

It's not about you

Well, quite.

I don't think you realise just how revealing that phrase is.

@Butwasitherdriveway

The thing is though *@ThePankhurstConnection* I am not talking about the women who talk about their fears about women and feminism.

I'm talking about the ones who have claimed on this thread alone it is just too 'difficult' for their brain as the word doesn't match the person they see.

Makes no difference what you are referring to. Once you start accusing people of saying or doing things they haven't to make an emotive point, or misrepresenting them to twist their words, then you have failed in making a reasonable argument.

The constant use of this style of argument online particularly on this subject (gender not pronouns) is why I no longer feel like I have to explain my choice to avoid or not use compelled pronouns. It's just 'no' now.

You mean the poster who said I said her children shouldn't exist?

Pot kettle black.

I was very clear. And so were you. I didn't say that. I said you were tired of their existence, as in being reminded to consider them, as in hearing about it.

Here's why I thought that.

This is my original post.

me: And for some children on the autistic spectrum, and for some people who speak English as an additional language, it is an almost impossible demand

you: As if we should eradicate trans just in case an autistic person gets it wrong.
I am sick fed up of autism being dragged into every argument. It's deceitful. Stop it.

you Any thread mentioning trans will link it to autism at some point , as if no autistic person ever is capable of individual thought. All autistic people are not the same as you will know.

I also never mentioned children.

Again, emphasising the point you don't want to hear about it. What is the exact amount of time people are allowed to mention that the needs of a subset of people with disabilities are being ignored, then? Because personally, I will shut up about it when it stops being an issue.

Note here, that it does not matter that you did not mention children, because you replied to someone (me!) who explicitly spoke about children. And said you were "sick fed up" of it.

I'm rather sick and fed-up of having to point out that allowances need to be made for my children and others like them, to be honest.

We've already had one young autistic man prosecuted for hate crime for his comments to a transgender police officer.

Here are some choice quotes.

Elaine Nicholson, CEO of Action for Asperger’s said: “This young man is being punished for his condition; having a communication disorder is what Asperger’s is all about.”

She said police guidelines for dealing with members of the public who may have Autism appear not to have been followed. The National Autistic Society’s Guide for Police Officers and Staff warns officers people with Autism sometimes “speak honestly, to the point of bluntness or rudeness”.

Linda Buchan, consultant clinical psychologist and a director of AXIA-ASD, a provider of diagnostic and support services to people with autism spectrum disorders across the UK and Europe, said: “Autistic people are involuntarily very honest, which can be perceived as being blunt or rude, when actually they are just trying to tell the truth.

“When ADHD and autism come together, sometimes it might mean someone is extremely impulsive and honest and that could be a dangerous combination for them if they blurt something out without any filter. If someone asks a question they probably just want to know what the answer is, rather than making a comment on the person they are asking.
“The police should have enough understanding to see people’s communication style in the context of their autism.”

Continue reading Autistic Teen Found Guilty of ‘Hate Crime’ for Asking Police Officer’s Sex; Autism Group Condemns Prosecution | Women Are Human. Read more at: www.womenarehuman.com/autistic-teen-found-guilty-of-hate-crime-for-asking-police-officers-sex-autism-group-condemns-prosecution/

So no. The issue will continue to be raised.

It’s not about allowing - trans identifying people exist whether I allow it or not. But that doesn’t mean I have to validate their identity, which is their business. Again, Christians exist, they can believe what they like but I don’t have to agree with them or `’validate” their identity that they’re the child of God and going to heaven. The reason I don’t argue with them about that is that they generally don’t try to make me. If they did, I would.

As I said before, can I be validated by everyone, including the trans lobby, for “identifying” as a woman on the basis of sex and wanting to organise and have groups ‘ spaces on that basis? If not why not? That identity is at least as “valid” as a trans identity, since it’s based in observable reality.

Anyway that’s me on 2 deletions so I really need to take a step back from these threads. Bollocks.

Omg.

And you decide someone else's reality, do you

No.....but your analogy was shit

And i always use preferred pronouns and preferred names

And you decide someone else's reality, do you

No you don't - that's the point!!!

What you're suggesting is that it's ok for a Trans person to impose their "reality" in relation to their chosen gender but not ok for anyone else to impose their "reality" in respect of observation/experience of someones sex to do the same.

Hypothetically if my brother Jim became Kim it doesn't mean I can (or should) erase my experiences of growing up with a male sibling. If taking about a day at the beach 5 years ago I shouldn't have to re-write my reality to talk about building sandcastles with my sister.

If I'm assaulted by a man and give evidence in Court, is it right that I'm expected to lie under oath and give testimony that "she" attacked me? Or indeed a jury to be fed a false narrative of a physical dispute between two females instead of an assault by a more physically powerful male?

It's why the argument "erasing" Transpeople (or denying their existence) doesn't wash.

We wouldn't be having this discussion if Trans people didn't exist. I believe trans rights are human rights because trans people are human and they deserve the same rights as everyone else.

However, Trans ideology doesn't want equal rights. It seeks an imbalance of rights in its favour by dismantling female sex based protections and the biggest weapon to achieve this has been through the re-definition of language.

Trans ideology tries to erase (and deny the existence of) the meaning and lived in experience of being an adult human female by appropriating the word woman and associated pronouns.

Similarly it seeks to invalidate, erase and/re-invent other people's reality, observations and experiences in order to validate the ideology.

It's why it's apparently not ok for a woman refuse an intimate medical procedure by someone she knows is not female because that's hurtful to the person doing it. It's ok to erase her feelings/experiences/observations and even to go further by labelling her as a bigot - her "hurt" is irrelevant.

In other words it's a one way street where there is an expectation not of mutual respect but imposition of one persons beliefs over another - ie deciding someone else's reality, which you've said you don't think is acceptable....

@Strangeststrangment

It's not about you

Well, quite.

I don't think you realise just how revealing that phrase is.

Yes, we get it. Poor women, etc etc.

@DeRigueurMortis

And you decide someone else's reality, do you

No you don't - that's the point!!!

What you're suggesting is that it's ok for a Trans person to impose their "reality" in relation to their chosen gender but not ok for anyone else to impose their "reality" in respect of observation/experience of someones sex to do the same.

Hypothetically if my brother Jim became Kim it doesn't mean I can (or should) erase my experiences of growing up with a male sibling. If taking about a day at the beach 5 years ago I shouldn't have to re-write my reality to talk about building sandcastles with my sister.

If I'm assaulted by a man and give evidence in Court, is it right that I'm expected to lie under oath and give testimony that "she" attacked me? Or indeed a jury to be fed a false narrative of a physical dispute between two females instead of an assault by a more physically powerful male?

It's why the argument "erasing" Transpeople (or denying their existence) doesn't wash.

We wouldn't be having this discussion if Trans people didn't exist. I believe trans rights are human rights because trans people are human and they deserve the same rights as everyone else.

However, Trans ideology doesn't want equal rights. It seeks an imbalance of rights in its favour by dismantling female sex based protections and the biggest weapon to achieve this has been through the re-definition of language.

Trans ideology tries to erase (and deny the existence of) the meaning and lived in experience of being an adult human female by appropriating the word woman and associated pronouns.

Similarly it seeks to invalidate, erase and/re-invent other people's reality, observations and experiences in order to validate the ideology.

It's why it's apparently not ok for a woman refuse an intimate medical procedure by someone she knows is not female because that's hurtful to the person doing it. It's ok to erase her feelings/experiences/observations and even to go further by labelling her as a bigot - her "hurt" is irrelevant.

In other words it's a one way street where there is an expectation not of mutual respect but imposition of one persons beliefs over another - ie deciding someone else's reality, which you've said you don't think is acceptable....

Not really.

Given that most of these threads insist that women's rights trump trans, I'm not guilty of that.

But I think to try and pretend that your own arrogant beliefs on pronouns are in any way equatable to someone asking to be called by the name or pronoun they identify by are equal is, well, bizarre.

What analogy @RufustheSniggeringReindeer?

@DeRigueurMortis

* Not really.

Given that most of these threads insist that women's rights trump trans, I'm not guilty of that.

But I think to try and pretend that your own arrogant beliefs on pronouns are in any way equatable to someone asking to be called by the name or pronoun they identify by are equal is, well, bizarre.*

Firstly, most (if not all) of these threads categorically do not say women's rights trump trans rights but the same can be said true of the reverse. What rights do trans people not currently have that other people do?

As for your last paragraph, it's a very typical TRA response. You've failed to respond to any of the points made in my post, preferring instead to attack my beliefs as "arrogant" and "bizarre".

You can't play the ball so you tackle the person instead.

Really. So these threads don't repeatedly foot stamp for woman's rights over trans? Are we reading the same threads?

😴😴😴 To your TRA comment.

If stonewall et al hadn’t spent several years screaming #nodebate #acceptancewithoutexception and insisting TW were exactly the same as those born female we wouldn’t be in this binary combative position

Women tried, fuck knows we tried! To discuss our worries and to see whether comprise was possible and for that we got rape threats, death threats, doxing, our employers harassed and our meetings picketed with TW and their allies screaming abuse in our faces

So funnily enough we’re very much not inclined to be fucking kind anymore

Really. So these threads don't repeatedly foot stamp for woman's rights over trans?

Feminists are trying to preserve rights that they fought hard for over many decades. Trans people also have rights (rightly so!) What rights are trans people missing?

@waterlego

Really. So these threads don't repeatedly foot stamp for woman's rights over trans?

Feminists are trying to preserve rights that they fought hard for over many decades. Trans people also have rights (rightly so!) What rights are trans people missing?

Eh, the right to have their pronouns respected. Yknow the point of the thread

But wider than that , PPs are trying to claim that these threads are not full of women's rights over trans. Which is nonsense.

@Biscuitsanddoombar

If stonewall et al hadn’t spent several years screaming #nodebate #acceptancewithoutexception and insisting TW were exactly the same as those born female we wouldn’t be in this binary combative position

Women tried, fuck knows we tried! To discuss our worries and to see whether comprise was possible and for that we got rape threats, death threats, doxing, our employers harassed and our meetings picketed with TW and their allies screaming abuse in our faces

So funnily enough we’re very much not inclined to be fucking kind anymore

But uo didn't. You didn't get rape threats, death threats, employers harassed etc etc. Did you?

And some random teen asking for respected pronouns didn't do any of that. Did they?

Eh, the right to have their pronouns respected. Yknow the point of the thread

I don't have the right to have my pronouns respected.

If someone continually referred to me as male and he/him or they, legally I'd have no recourse.

@DeRigueurMortis

Eh, the right to have their pronouns respected. Yknow the point of the thread

I don't have the right to have my pronouns respected.

If someone continually referred to me as male and he/him or they, legally I'd have no recourse.

Neither would I if someone called me a horrible name..it's still not nice or fair.

Again, why? Why go to this level? For what point?