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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

999 replies

JensonsAcolyte · 28/03/2021 08:45

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

OP posts:
Shimmyshimmycocobop · 29/03/2021 19:03

I feel your pain Op, DS1 and I avoid this topic and have agreed to disagree. He is 20, gay and at University and is also as woke as they come.
But... the fact he now avoids this subject with me makes me strongly suspect deep down he knows what he's saying isn't logical. He's an atheist, believes in science and apart from this is a critical thinker, I am hopeful that in years to come he will see that his old terfy mum might have been on to something 😉

tennischamp · 29/03/2021 19:11

We simply cannot discuss in our house. Very woke teens and DH who says he gets it, but he really doesn't and would never say anything like yours OP in support.
It's so bloody infuriating

Feelinghothothottoday · 29/03/2021 19:38

Same here. I drop comments but we can’t have a discussion. My DP thinks he understands but I think he pays lip service to shut me up.

DodoPatrol · 29/03/2021 20:18

DH was so quiet or outright dismissive that I assumed he agreed with the offspring. When I asked him outright whether he thought of our young relative as a man, though, he looked surprised and said, ‘Of course not. I don’t think anyone does, do they?’

Our parents meanwhile had assumed ‘trans man’ was just a new word for lesbian and were horribly shocked to hear about the surgery and hormones.

But I’m the one in the firing line from the kids. Hey ho.

CrumpetShaw · 29/03/2021 20:43

The whole "unsafe" thing is just rubbish. I don't believe that. It's just Another thing they've heard, and they think sounds dramatic. You can't compare it to derogatory terms on the basis of race either. It isn't derogatory to say that in your view, someone is a particular sex.

Defaultname · 29/03/2021 21:35

A Samoan woman's claims that she has stigmata has gripped the Pacific Island nation in recent weeks.

Toaipuapuaga Opapo, 23, says bleeding wounds appeared on her body while she was at church on Good Friday. Her story, widely covered in the largely Christian country, has triggered a national debate, and even comment from the prime minister.

Stigmata are marks or bleeding similar to that of Christ at the crucifixion. Believers say they appear miraculously though there is much scepticism around the claims.

Ms Opapo said the wounds appeared on her palms, feet, forehead and her side while she was performing as Jesus Christ in a church play re-enacting the crucifixion last month. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-35975137

If this catches on in the UK, it could make life difficult in terms of affirmation.

MrGHardy · 29/03/2021 21:40

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LastRoloIsMine · 29/03/2021 22:53

They have no fight of their own.

They have to piggyback on actual oppression because humans cannot change sex yet they have chosen that Hill. They are trying their damn hardest to convince us men are women.

grapewine · 29/03/2021 23:26

I have a theory that this generation are so used to customising avatars, creating skins, deciding to play as the opposite to themselves and switching everything in an instant that they think the real world is up for grabs in the same way. - Brilliant point, @ANewCreation.

CatastropheDog · 30/03/2021 00:15

I agree with you, OP. As a 22 year old student (woman) who has been raped twice at age 18 and 20 the world is already a scary place. I don’t want biological males in my spaces!

I’m studying a medical degree and thankfully I’ve never met anyone in ‘real life’ who is non-binary but I have one FTM trans person. I honestly don’t care if a man wears a dress or women grow out their armpit hair but I see all of these characteristics to be ‘gender’ which is just a social construct. You cannot change sex. I also don’t care if Charlotte wants to become Charlie or Harry. I just want to feel safe.

CatastropheDog · 30/03/2021 00:19

I’ve only voiced my opinion a few times and I seem to be in the minority. Even my boyfriend who knows of my past agrees with trans rights yet he only recently started to cross the stress when behind a woman at night... I think that shows how much of a ‘big thing’ the media has made the trans movement.

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 30/03/2021 00:21

🙄

Delphinium20 · 30/03/2021 00:39

OP I've been there. My DD 17 cried the first time she worried I was a bigot...it's really the only thing we really diverged on in disagreement...other differences of hot-button opinions we have various shades of how to fix what we both agree is a problem (e.g. she says defund police, I say reform) ...but this one was quite entrenched.

However, I'm here to say there is hope...months after first blow, we had a level headed convo that went in depth into feminism...we came out with her knowing how much I love trans kids in my world and I came out knowing that she thinks of me as idealistic feminist who is foremost concerned w/ abolishing stereotypes. We still have some work to do, but she agreed to research some more as did I and we'd regroup....here's hoping you can progress like we did...I'm hoping we all can look back in 10 years w/ our kids and have a better convo about this topic in the future.

ScreamingBeans · 30/03/2021 01:06

When someone says they are unsafe think of it this way - if you were a relgious person who believed homosexuals were going to hell, and your DS's partner was gay - it's on a par with that.

She doesn't think you are going to hurt her, but that you deny that a fundamental part of her nature is valid.

If she doesn't think you're going to hurt her, why is she claiming to be unsafe?

ScreamingBeans · 30/03/2021 01:17

When my kids were little I used to go to a playgroup run by fundamentalist evangelical Christians. I'm an atheist. All of them knew that I am destined for hell. I knew they were the sort of crackpots who bring religion into disrepute.

None of us felt unsafe. We were friendly and polite and drank our tea and handed round the biscuits. We discussed our views and did so without insulting each other or being mean to each other.

It always makes me laugh to reflect that people who think they're so progressive and enlightened, are not capable of achieving the same level of tolerance managed by genuinely bigoted religious maniacs (they seriously think everyone who doesn't go to their church is going to hell. Even Anglicans. Probably especially Anglicans.)

xxyzz · 30/03/2021 03:02

Kinda disappointed to see so many eloquent women passing up the chance to have these important conversations with their own dcs (preferably at any early pre-teen age, to innoculate them against the rubbish they'll hear when older).

If you can't have a good go at changing the views of your own dcs, whose views can you change?

I have 1 GC dc, 1 I originally TWAW dc who I challenged who is now much more moderate and only 1 dc who I can't discuss this with because she literally bursts into tears as soon as the subject is raised!

But no arguments.

I feel very strongly on this and no way would I put up with one of my own dcs calling me a bigot etc for standing up for women's rights!

So OP, I think you were right to push back, and should keep doing it. Though it sounds like you need to get your DH to push back clearly too.

Oblomov21 · 30/03/2021 03:12

As your Dh said there is no substance to their arguments.
I find the whole debate irritating and so sad.
Pp said you both sounded extreme. You don't sound extreme to me. This whole era of teenagers and debate on these things is so sad. And not going to get better.

Roonerspismed · 30/03/2021 03:13

Teenagers have a strange view of the world and always have

I actually think not backing down with your beliefs was right here.

StrugglingToBeStylish · 30/03/2021 07:29

My son is autistic so I started this chat early because - who knows? And apparently such a high proportion of trans people are autistic that I’m aware that this might be an issue in the future

I’ve told him he can be what he likes but he can’t ever be a female

I think this is the sort of chat you need to have from the start

This conversation started with us because at the age of six he thought it entirely possible to change sex just by wearing a frock. That was just from stuff he’s picked up at school

I don’t think you can underestimate the amount of subtle brainwashing that goes in and it’s best to get in early and fight your corner if you have to

Seeing young women deny their own rights makes me especially sad

Lovemusic33 · 30/03/2021 07:50

@StrugglingToBeStylish

My son is autistic so I started this chat early because - who knows? And apparently such a high proportion of trans people are autistic that I’m aware that this might be an issue in the future

I’ve told him he can be what he likes but he can’t ever be a female

I think this is the sort of chat you need to have from the start

This conversation started with us because at the age of six he thought it entirely possible to change sex just by wearing a frock. That was just from stuff he’s picked up at school

I don’t think you can underestimate the amount of subtle brainwashing that goes in and it’s best to get in early and fight your corner if you have to

Seeing young women deny their own rights makes me especially sad

I did the same, dd has Aspergers, she started asking to be a boy after seeing advert for a documentary on tv, she’s never been girly, she’s now 17 and is very much female in the fact she doesn’t want to be male but identifies as Pansexual. Tbh I get fed up with all the labels, to me she’s just dd and I don’t care what she wears or who she eventually ends up in a relationship with, I just want her to be happy, I think it has become ‘a thing’ to be labelled as anything but ‘straight’, do people really need these labels? Why can’t people just wear what they like and date who they like?
Clymene · 30/03/2021 10:10

Yep @StrugglingToBeStylish - same here.

I've had to move on to 'no I don't hate trans people but it's impossible for humans to change sex'. The amount of indoctrination they get from social media and their peers is incalculable. Our children are being steeped in this ideology from a young age. It's why it's crucial that schools aren't banging the drum.

Zeev · 30/03/2021 10:34

She doesn't think you are going to hurt her, but that you deny that a fundamental part of her nature is valid.

Not getting other people do the emotional labour of validation for you does not make you unsafe.

Zeev · 30/03/2021 10:35

"Not getting other people TO do the emotional labour of validation for you" of course, I blame the lack of coffee. Hmm

babyyodaxmas · 30/03/2021 10:42

Last time we had this chat I told my teens I was indetifying as a bicycle and my pronounes would be : be, by and bem.

yumscrumfatbum · 30/03/2021 10:52

I've had some really interesting chats with my Arts student DS who firmly sees me as a "Terf". We've pretty much reached an impasse that means the subject is now exhausted with no agreement on either side. We've had to leave it at that in the same way I cannot discuss politics with my right wing in laws!