I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

If you don’t learn how to deal with anxiety, stress and people holding different opinions then that only storing problems up for yourself in the future.

Exactly @FightingTheFoo and @toffeebutterpopcorn.

I never felt unsafe - mildly amused by their pronouncements

Yes, exactly.

Dadjoke’s example of a God-fearer’s homophobia is not a good analogy for having gender critical views. But even if it was, feeling ‘unsafe’ around someone with such views would be a strange response.

My DD 17 and I have discussed this a fair bit, we actually share a GC view. DD is studying science, and a keen sportswoman, so TWAW and TW in sport are very much bollocks in her view.

I'm worried for her, as she heads off to university in the near future. Not because of what views she may be exposed to, but because of her views causing issues with others. I'm afraid I've already warned her what to expect, and that unfortunately there are going to be times when she will have to keep her head down to avoid conflict.

I'd love to tell her to proudly stand up for her views, but I think it's fair to assume universities are well and truly captured by this ☹️

I’ve just been chatting to my neighbour who is a conspiracy theorist. Covid doesn’t exist, the vaccine is fake etc.

Today he went a step further and claimed that we lost WWII and that we actually live in a Communist State, even though we don’t know it. He also doesn’t ’believe in’ multiculturalism and once used the word ‘p*ki’ in conversation, which I found revolting although I am not Pakistani or Indian myself.

I disagree with pretty much everything he says and tell him I think he’s talking bollocks. I think his opinions are quite mad, but I’m not scared of him or the words he says.

I absolutely believe that people can be trans, and feel they are in the wrong body.

BUT how can a person actually change sex? It's a physical impossibility he does sound privileged and I think that's the problem with a lot of teens.
Although what teen doesn't think they know everything at the time.
I think it would be good for him to learn how to have a discussion with someone without resorting to insults. Especially if you are actually respectful of his views!

@waterlego

I’ve just been chatting to my neighbour who is a conspiracy theorist. Covid doesn’t exist, the vaccine is fake etc.

Today he went a step further and claimed that we lost WWII and that we actually live in a Communist State, even though we don’t know it. He also doesn’t ’believe in’ multiculturalism and once used the word ‘p*ki’ in conversation, which I found revolting although I am not Pakistani or Indian myself.

I disagree with pretty much everything he says and tell him I think he’s talking bollocks. I think his opinions are quite mad, but I’m not scared of him or the words he says.

I dunno

As a woman of colour, I run a mile from anyone using those words because I do think violence towards me might be the next step. Not the best example?

I sound like I'm debating with myself there haha.
Glad you made up anyway

@catmandont

My DD 17 and I have discussed this a fair bit, we actually share a GC view. DD is studying science, and a keen sportswoman, so TWAW and TW in sport are very much bollocks in her view.

I'm worried for her, as she heads off to university in the near future. Not because of what views she may be exposed to, but because of her views causing issues with others. I'm afraid I've already warned her what to expect, and that unfortunately there are going to be times when she will have to keep her head down to avoid conflict.

I'd love to tell her to proudly stand up for her views, but I think it's fair to assume universities are well and truly captured by this ☹️

I think that is a very safe assumption to make in terms of the overall culture, regardless of what individual academics or students actually believe (or should we say, KNOW). They have become amongst the greatest purveyors of groupthink. Freedom of thought and expression only applies if you are on the 'right' side of the argument. A friend of mine who works in an Irish university dared to support a candidate for the Irish senate elections on the University panel who would be from a more conservative mindset. She got her ass handed to her on a plate by those who couldnt actually fathom how a university lecturer could fit into anything other than the left-wing/liberal/pro-choice framework. How very dare she! I wouldnt have voted for or supported her guy myself but then again, I don't have to.

Woke little shit 😂

Handhold. X

I honestly think this "I feel unsafe/threatened" is a power play and a way of bending people to your will.

100%

Fair point Acorn. My apologies for not giving more thought to how that would feel.

And this is what I like about proper adult discussion. Taking on someone else's point of view and apologising if necessary.

OP was a homophobe who believed that homosexuality was a mental illness, or not real

But she isn't, and she doesn't, and that isn't what she said. So it's not comparable.

People always feel unsafe when they know that their ideology is built on foundations not of rock but sand and can be washed away by a strong tide.
And the tide is turning.

Thinking homosexuality is "not real" makes no sense. It's clearly real, has been around for millennia, even exists in animals. To be homosexual you just have to have a sexual preference for your own sex. That's what the word means. You can disapprove of it, but that in itself suggests you see it exists.

Thinking that changing sex is not real is a totally different thing. Changing sex is not supported by any evidence or science. And "gender identity" just means "thinking that gender stereotypes determine your sex". There is no argument that makes "gender identity" make sense, that's why you never hear any sensible arguments. Just "that's offensive" "educate yourself" or "Fuck off TERF".

Therefore doubting the whole premise of genderism is a reasonable position. It's not hate – in fact it's usually a view held by people who want harm to teens to be prevented.

*That's why I presented the analogy. If she were gay and the OP was a homophobe who believed that homosexuality was a mental illness, or not real, then "not feeling safe" sounds a lot more reasonable to GC ears.

There's always got to be an analogy. It can never be explained on it's own merits, something else has to be dragged in to give the appearance its explainable. Always.

The funniest bit of this is the age of the people lifesplaining to me what I lived through before they were born.

There's always got to be an analogy. It can never be explained on it's own merits, something else has to be dragged in to give the appearance its explainable. Always.

YY. Always. One might ask why it can't stand on its own merits.

Being gay is easily proved by shagging a same sex partner. A human who claims to have changed sex though, never seems to have any proof beyond 'feelings'.

God that sounds awful. It is a fear of mine, if I actually talked about this to my trans step child, my true anger and strength of feeling would come out, and although I'd rather it be a productive discussion, it'd be a shit show. But in this case, you are clearly a thoughtful and measured person. They are brainwashed, and hopefully in years to come they'll change their views. For now you could appeal to "let's agree to disagree"?

I like the old Jewish expression ' Why don't you leave home while you still know everything - and I still have some money?' It sounds very upsetting though. Handhold

@waterlego

Fair point Acorn. My apologies for not giving more thought to how that would feel.

No worries at all, no apology needed.

I think a better example might be the whole atheist or believer thing, it doesn't male sense that one view feels like a physical threat to the other.

*No worries at all, no apology needed.

I think a better example might be the whole atheist or believer thing, it doesn't male sense that one view feels like a physical threat to the other.*

Agreed! I have friends who are religious while I’m atheist/agnostic. We manage to get along fine with neither feeling threatened or unsafe around the other.

Not sure what my mistake here was @MNHQ. Are we no longer allowed to highlight comments we find to be in bad taste?