I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

My fav is so let's put all the Transwoman, and all the Men who think they Are woman on an island.
You can have unlimited money, but your not allowed test tube babies.
In 100 years we will bring the descendants home.

She doesn't think you are going to hurt her, but that you deny that a fundamental part of her nature is valid.

But since when does anyone have to be "validated" by anyone else? Respected as a human being, treated decently and not cruelly, abusively or criminally – yes we all deserve that. But I don't expect a religious friend to "validate" me as an atheist, even if it is part of my identity (not that I tend to use that term), or vice versa - we just disagree and that's OK. I don't have to tell a gay friend I "validate" their gayness - it's theirs to own, not mine to "approve of". Everyone should have the right to be treated fairly and not discriminated against, but as a biological woman I have to fight for that right against a lot of misogyny. Being a biological woman is a vital part of my "identity" – but will Mx Trans Rights Non Binary teenager validate that for me? No, to TRAs, me valuing my identity as a bio woman means I'm a bigot and deserve to be silenced. Nice.

The trouble with demanding to be validated is it goes both ways. This is why adults over the centuries have learned that agreeing to disagree is a handy skill.

@Whythesadface

My fav is so let's put all the Transwoman, and all the Men who think they Are woman on an island. You can have unlimited money, but your not allowed test tube babies. In 100 years we will bring the descendants home.

Right so they can't have kids. Is there a point to this?

If humans could change sex (like the much-posited clownfish) you would expect them to be able to reproduce as their chosen sex at similar rates to others of that sex (like clownfish can).

Of course it's obvious that a TW cannot reproduce like a biological woman (though may be able to father a child). But when you are being asked to believe (and "validate") that a human can change sex, and that a person's biological sex is unimportant, you have recourse to the facts, which do not agree with that.

But I don't expect a religious friend to "validate" me as an atheist, even if it is part of my identity (not that I tend to use that term), or vice versa - we just disagree and that's OK. I don't have to tell a gay friend I "validate" their gayness - it's theirs to own, not mine to "approve of".

Spot-on. I don’t ‘validate’ my RC friends or their beliefs because I don’t believe in the Virgin birth, the resurrection or transubstantiation. What I do instead is like and respect them very much as people, respect their right to worship as they see fit and to live their lives according to their beliefs.

And if they demanded that you state their beliefs (and look as if you believe it), never ever use the wrong word or get a name wrong... and if not they will say they feel invalidated and unsafe... I think your back away

I do wonder whether the 'validation' part of it is inevitable for a generation who have grown up with state involvement in more of their lives than ever. I remember sixth form debating society stuff about the "surveillance state" and whether the increased security from CCTV was worth the loss of privacy. Now, CCTV is expected, and the amount of data available to the state is phenomenal - if the police need it they can track your journeys with your Oyster card (or similar scheme), with your phone data, see which shops you visited on CCTV, what journeys you made in your car - and this is considered not just normal but welcome. On top of that, public bodies collect data on your Equality Act protected characteristics and we've become used to telling the state our sex, race, age, disabilities, religion, marital status - things that my parents would have said were none of the state's damn business. Add in social media which will harvest any amount of your personal data and would collect your star-sign if they thought it could be useful for advertising, and you have a population which is unused to personal privacy when it comes to identity.

I think growing up with that as the norm perhaps encourages people to feel that society only values the parts of their identity that are available from a drop down menu.

Kinda disappointed to see so many eloquent women passing up the chance to have these important conversations with their own dcs (preferably at any early pre-teen age, to innoculate them against the rubbish they'll hear when older).

I did do this - school - very working class area - and peer group have still had a massive influence. I've pushed back and questioned and very much tried to boslter critical thinking skills.

I don't want to alienate my children with opposition to their beliefs because they'll switch off and I'll lose all influence - same with school I need a working relationship with them and have more than this one issue to raise.

I'm playing a long game though my kids - mainly DD1 at the minute - who's friends are more immersed and if I was their parents I'd be more worried. We're not at the coal face as it were - they are not ones with issues around their gender there just caught up in the zeitgeist of their generation.

I can't make them agree with what I think - couldn't even with DH who had his own journey via work that means he's on the same page now with this topic - though before that I raised many points with him.

DD1 group are leaving for different locations for A-levels - so it's possible a change in peers could mean a change in attitude for better or worse. With DS it's less his peers and school - where he shows skepistm about many topics but keeps quiet - and more drip drip with you tubers he watches or even radio 4 reporting/programs- and I do challenge when I hear it.

It's only going to get harder - I don't want to upset or be impolite to guests in my home but expecting me to validate a position I don't belive in isn't on the cards. TBH the religious analogy is probaly most apt there.

@JensonsAcolyte how are things in the jenson household today?

Maybe if your ds continues to act like a petulant child, you should read him the children’s book “The Emperors New clothes” - it’s a very fitting for the situation..... everyone thinking something but nobody saying.

Supposing an emperor was persuaded to wear a new suit of clothes whose material was so fine that, to the common eye, the clothes weren't there. And suppose a little boy pointed out this fact in a loud, clear voice...
Then you have The Story of the Emperor Who Had No Clothes.
But if you knew a bit more, it would be The Story of the Boy Who Got a Well-Deserved Thrashing from His Dad for Being Rude to Royalty, and Was Locked Up.
Or The Story of the Whole Crowd Who Were Rounded Up by the Guards and Told 'This Didn't Happen, OK? Does Anyone Want to Argue?'
Or it could be a story of how a whole kingdom suddenly saw the benefit of the 'new clothes', and developed an enthusiasm for healthy sports in a lively and refreshing atmosphere which got many new adherents every year, and led to a recession caused by the collapse of the conventional clothing industry.
It could even be a story about The Great Pneumonia Epidemic of '09.
It all depends on how much you know.”

― Terry Pratchett

Right so they can't have kids. Is there a point to this?

I think the point is somewhat obvious. Sex matters. It's not random, or about identity, which sex impregnates and which sex is pregnant.

I suppose if you ran the same experiment with young NB people - give it a few year and there would miraculously be babies.

I suppose if you ran the same experiment with young NB people - give it a few year and there would miraculously be babies.

I bet I could arrange any group of NB people across two islands in such a way there would be no babies at all.

I have this uncanny sorting ability which no mere "Science" could possibly explain. It's too complicated.

You must be a soul-seer...

@NecessaryScene1

I suppose if you ran the same experiment with young NB people - give it a few year and there would miraculously be babies.

I bet I could arrange any group of NB people across two islands in such a way there would be no babies at all.

I have this uncanny sorting ability which no mere "Science" could possibly explain. It's too complicated.

Brilliant

I am very confused by this whole thread. Admittedly I don't frequent MN or it's feminism board often but - what is the point here? That trans people don't exist? Or some particular problem with trans women?

No. The point is that women exist and sex is immutable; women are oppressed for our biology; homo and heterosexuality aren't bigotry; and your boyfriend's mum not believing in innate gender stereotypes doesn't mean you are unsafe in her home.

@curlymacv, I think the main issues are:

OP’s DCs and some of their friends feel that the OP is transphobic and bigoted because:

-she knows that humans can’t change sex
-she feels that gender is regressive
-she does not think JK Rowling is a hateful bigot
-she believes that children and teens should not be placed on lifelong medical pathways which may cause great harm to them and which may not ‘fix’ the young person’s difficulties

Plus given that DS and their ‘person friend’ mouthed off at OP but not their DH despite him espousing the same view, it’s quite clear they know exactly what a woman is when it comes to who to be rude too

Thank you for the summary. I'm not quite sure what to think at times, it seems a lot of people use the words gender and sex interchangeably

They certainly do @curlymacv, and that is creating myriad problems (at least in the opinion of many of us regulars on this board).

Those of us who see ourselves as ‘gender critical’ believe that sex is binary (although we know that some people have disorders of sex development which might mean they have a mixture of characteristics but will still be either male or female).

We tend to believe that the word ‘gender’ was originally a term used in linguistics which later became a euphemism for sex. The meaning seems to have shifted again and is often used these days in the context of ‘gender identity’ which has been explained in a number of different ways by various different people. It’s meaning is difficult to pin down.

GC people object to the idea of facilities being provided on the basis of gender (since it is so difficult to define); we believe facilities should be segregated by sex. (Changing rooms, hospital wards and prisons being the examples discussed most frequently).

To add: I am gender critical and these are my views. I can’t claim to speak for other gender critical people on the board!

Interesting, I see it as a very nuanced debate to be honest. Segregated facilities make a lot of sense for safety reasons etc but it also leaves the question of where do intersex people belong? I don't even have an answer for that though. It's tricky.
I'm intrigued by you saying sex is binary though - how can that be said when, as you said, there are many people who are not XX or XY in the world? Not trying to attack you or anything, just interested in the reasoning.

Intersex - you are still one sex or the other. There is no mystery ‘other’ sex/es.

Intersex people have asked that they not be used as an example in the trans debate. No one seems to respect this though.