I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

@sanluca

The breathtaking arrogance of these largely middle class young people who generally have only ever taken from the world, who as a generation contribute least to their household of probably any set of young people in history, who have the fucking time to read all this crap because theyre not milking cows or helping with younger siblings or in a family business.....I doubt their contemporaries in Bangladesh or Mexico even in working class communities on their own country have time for this shit. It absolutely boils my piss.

This. Why don't these kids go do something useful? Volunteer, fight climate change, clean the beaches, work.. but no, navelgazing about their 'identities'. Anytime my eldest starts, I give her a list of chores and tell her 'identity' to go work as the rest of us have to. She is beginning to get it.

@sanluca. You're my kind of parent. I would take some of what they go on about more seriously if they showed any signs of doing the dreary grunt work of actually making their own little corner of the world a better place. Starting with their own bedrooms! Ok not really, but it just all feels like so much navel gazing and as we'd say in Ireland, blather when there's a million practical things they could be doing which don't involve the sound of their own voices. I absolutely challenged my parents views but there were two critical differences - I challenged them on the basis of reason, evidence and science (e.g in relation to womens rights) and I was a useful and contributing member of the family (worked on the farm since year dot, then babysitting, then first proper job at 15) who as a teenager asked very little of my parents financially or otherwise. Oh and I wouldn't have fucking dared be as rude as OPs children have been as mine try to be. To be condescended to by young people whose main contrubution seems to be surfing the internet and liking or disliking things....no, not acceptable.

I think your behaviour is a moral outrage, and that you are going to Hell, but do feel welcome here.

Of course a gay person would find this offensive and probably not want to spend time at that person’s home. It doesn’t translate to feeling unsafe though.

Hand hold, my teenage Dd and Ds are very much on the same page as I am on this topic. However as they are teenagers they know everything and are always right.

Yes, well teenagers can’t ever be wrong and they always know better than you, no matter what you say.
Smile, nod, say ‘oh right’ in a calm tone.
Secretly write down every crazy notion they have for future reference if it makes you feel better.
Smile inside and Know that at about age 25+ you can bring out your notes and they will probably go beetroot at their past comvictions

When someone says they are unsafe think of it this way - if you were a relgious person who believed homosexuals were going to hell, and your DS's partner was gay - it's on a par with that.

It is interesting that people keep comparing this situation with being gay and homophobia. I would just like to clarify firstly that supporting women's rights and wishing to maintain safeguards for children is not in any way similar to homophobia that gay and lesbians experienced in the past.

Supporting and advocating for women's rights is not transphobic. You also forget that many gc women (and men) are lesbian or gay themselves (and no they have not forgotten the difficulties they suffered in those days).

Secondly though, Dadjoke, it is obvious that there is homophobia but it is not coming from most women who post on FWR.

I saw on Twitter yesterday, a high profile gay man called Sheridan Sinclair pointed out to Mr Gay England (a 'beauty contest') that Priyo (a transman) is not a gay man. Priyo, for anyone not familiar has not taken testosterone, wears stick on facial hair and entered 'Mr Gay England'. Priyo talks about their 'WAP' and has an obviously female body.

Sheridan wasn't rude or abusive but pointed out that Priyo is not a gay man and as such shouldn't be included in a Mr Gay England title. Sheridan has the protected characteristic of sexual orientation and as such is entitled to defend his position.

The competition organiser has reported him to the police for 'Hate crime'. Sheridan is a gay man who has been hounded off social media (he has either been deleted by twitter or has deactivated his account), he had an article deleted by another blog platform because he defended his sexual orientation from being appropriated by someone who doesn't share that sexual orientation.

I am not anti-trans people. I wish trans people all the best in their lives. I am however, pro-women's rights and wish to maintain our legally defined sex based protections and safeguards and those of our children. That is not transphobic.

If you think that those two positions are incompatible, then we all need an open conversation about , how to move forward, not stealth attempts to change the law and bully us into #nodebate.

Jesus, that’s chilling, gardenbird48.

Off to the gulag for re-education for Sheridan, then. And of course a grovelling public apology for his wrongthink afterwards.

And if you say that sexuality and gender identity are different, well of course they are, but they are both a fundamental part of someone's identity even if you think they are not valid.

Sexuality has got nothing to do with this.

And what meaning of “valid” are you using here?

I think your behaviour is a moral outrage, and that you are going to Hell, but do feel welcome here.

But that is not in any way comparable to OP's stance or what she has said to the girlfriend.

It's much more like being known as an atheist and your son being a born-again Christian with a born-again Christian girlfriend. You politely welcome her and don't say "by the way your beliefs are bollocks and there's no god". But at the same time you do not accept that you have to believe what they believe. That is comparable to OP's position and most religious people would understand that.

But for gender ideologues that's not good enough - just the fact that someone doesn't share their unevidenced beliefs makes them feel "unsafe". That's ridiculous, and hypocritical, as by that token OP should also feel unsafe. If anyone disagreeing with you makes you unsafe, then surely it's unsafe to be on either side of any disagreement?

As for the gay parallels, there are a number of key diffrences, not least being that gayness doesn't demand anyone else lose their rights, and it's just a fact, not something you have to believe in with no evidence.

But also, when gay rights were being fought for and became mainstream, I don't remember being banned from mentioning that some people are straight in case it excluded or upset gay people. I don't remember gay people coming over all "unsafe" or threaten violence if anyone disagreed with them about anything.

Hear hear Windy.

I've noticed a lot of younger people say 14+ I'm only 28 so not ancient say that if men don't date a trans woman then they're transphobic. Which is absolutely ridiculous and I want to bang heads together in all honesty.

Also just to put it out there. The younger generation are the ones who don't want to be labelled yet want a label for everything.

ThatsNotTheTeaHunty

After bringing up a teen to not subscribe to stereotypes at all, they then told me last year that it is comforting to label themselves so they feel accepted. It is really hard.

It’s fine to have a genital preference as long as you don’t rub it in

Oh wow, so you'll tolerate my homosexuality as long as I'm 'discreet' about it and ideally feign some level of interest in the opposite sex?

Also just to put it out there. The younger generation are the ones who don't want to be labelled yet want a label for everything.

Yes the Non Binary person I know is always going on about how they are affected by their multiple "labels". Labels that they have put a large amount of effort into seeking out and claiming for themselves

I've noticed a lot of younger people say 14+ I'm only 28 so not ancient say that if men don't date a trans woman then they're transphobic.

Men: whatever (continue to not date transwomen)

Your post has made me laugh so much. Especially the bit about 'navel gazing bollocks'. You are a brave woman. I salute you.

@JensonsAcolyte

This is what my head hurts so much with.

Why ARE we (society) desperate to affirm and medicalise these kids?

It is absolutely, exactly the same as goths, punks, grunge. And the darker tribes like the anorexics and self harmers. None of this is new but for some reason it’s been made meaningful in a way no other teenage tribe has before.

I think it"s partly an extension of medicalising everything.

The concept is profitable in many ways.

[quote allthecarrotcake]@gardenbird48

Excellent post. Although I do fear that's what's in store for us. Legislating is out of any discussion on the matter. It seems as if the conclusions have already been drawn and it's simply a matter of time now.

I'll keep fighting it. [/quote]
thank you - I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Sheridan will come back fighting on this one - he's got a lot of support.

It will be interesting to see how this works out because as far as I'm aware, if he has been reported to the police under the Hate Crime law, even though he has done nothing wrong, it will be recorded against his name and could come in an enhanced DBS search if he wanted to apply for a position of responsibility.

I think that as Harry the Owl and Sarah Phillimore have found that once this has been recorded against your name and you find out (they don't tell you that you have been reported so you have no right to reply), it can't be erased.

I'm guessing this will have been recorded as perceived hate towards someone under the transphobia protection (it doesn't need to be reported by the subject of the 'problem', it can be reported by someone else who perceives abuse on behalf of someone else).

Not that it helps him much but Sheridan does have protection because of his sexual orientation (I can't remember the exact names of the pcs) so I wonder if he can make a counter report for Hate speech against him on grounds of denying his legally protected sexual orientation?

It is all so bizarre. I hope Harry Miller's case and if necessary Sarah Phillimore helps to sort out this ridiculous situation. Talk about the law of unintended consequences .

It is a little bit like Helen Islan trying to have Miranda Yardley (a transsexual) prosecuted for transphobia but worse.

Sorry for the derail OP, fwiw, I think you're doing the right thing in being firm with DS and I hope that it has all calmed down for you today.

It's much more like being known as an atheist and your son being a born-again Christian with a born-again Christian girlfriend. You politely welcome her and don't say "by the way your beliefs are bollocks and there's no god". But at the same time you do not accept that you have to believe what they believe. That is comparable to OP's position and most religious people would understand that

This is a much more apt analogy. Op says she uses pronouns and name as requested, so she has played along. Perhaps in this analogy, she’s done whatever the equivalent of neglecting to say grace before eating is, and this has been used to bolster the sense of being unwelcome?

It’s nothing like being rejected for being gay. It’s thirty years ago now, but I still remember holding my best friend as he sobbed his heart out after his father had found out he was gay and disowned him, saying “you’re no longer my son”.

Disagreeing that it’s possible to change sex and not believing that identifying as non binary is particularly progressive and beneficial is very, very far from that. Thankfully.

Solidarity, OP. It’s very upsetting.

@CrazyNeighbour

This article absolutely nails what is happening here. I would print it out and let the lot of them read it.

Thank you. I enjoyed that.

@DadJoke

It's a tale as old as time - liberal teens opposing reactionary parents, or vice versa. I've heard so many horror stories about people coming out as gay, and their parents rejecting them, saying it's just a phase, or even kicking them out.

I'm glad you made up with your DS. It gives you the opportunity to have another discussion without the insults. One piece of advice is to refer to the behaviour and views you don't like rather than applying a label to the person.

When someone says they are unsafe think of it this way - if you were a relgious person who believed homosexuals were going to hell, and your DS's partner was gay - it's on a par with that.

She doesn't think you are going to hurt her, but that you deny that a fundamental part of her nature is valid.

You do understand that even if your analogy with sexuality holds - which it doesn't - someone who is very Christian being outwardly rude about their son's partner being gay still isn't the same as being "unsafe".

It's rude. It's impolite. But it's not the same thing - at all - as making someone feel physically afraid.

"Unsafe" is how a 5"4 naked woman in an empty women's changing room at 10pm might feel when a broad shouldered 6 foot "woman" with a beard walk in, stands next to her, and whips out a penis.

I worked for the church and there was a couple of people I would encounter who were a bit ‘full on’ shall we say? Absolutely thought everyone else was going straight to hell, we were all whores and fornicators etc (delightful).

I never felt unsafe - mildly amused by their pronouncements and their frequent slats with the vicar (oh, the time he got a magician in to entertain the Sunday school children whilst there was a meeting for the parents going on). I never went wibbling into a safe room or called the police. Their opinion was different - as long as they weren’t scaring the children or ragging on the elderly nuns (who we used to work with), then that was ok.

We don’t discuss it anymore, as it causes them anxiety to discuss it knowing they have to keep a pretense as such to keep their friends.

I think this peer pressure underlies a lot of why young people are so unbending on this and won't listen to contrary arguments.