Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

999 replies

JensonsAcolyte · 28/03/2021 08:45

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

OP posts:
vimtosogood · 28/03/2021 23:32

@Zeev

It rhymes with bat, but it isn't bat...

ItsLateHumpty · 28/03/2021 23:34

It's beyond insulting - it is potentially very damaging to you personally. I work with children and vulnerable adults and an accusation like that could have very serious ramifications.

And if you live in Scotland and she (or I guess ‘they’ as an enby?) reported you, under proposed new laws you could find yourself charged with a Hate Crime.

www.gov.scot/policies/crime-prevention-and-reduction/hate-crime/

Scotland's Hate Crime Bill faces final vote in Holyrood www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56341882

“Scottish Conservative MSPs Adam Tomkins and Liam Kerr have proposed amendments that they say will protect free speech in private - something the new law doesn't offer.”

“Mr Yousaf said: "If you are sitting round the dinner table having a debate about transgender identity and your view is that a man can't transition to a woman, that won't get you prosecuted.”

“"If your behaviour is found to be threatening or abusive by a reasonable person and it was intended to stir up hatred - and that can be proven beyond reasonable doubt - then you will be prosecuted."”

WindyPudding · 28/03/2021 23:40

When I invoked Rik, it wasn’t out of cluelessness, or just how I think these things appear on the surface. Believe me I have thought a lot about all this.

The point is that Rik is a normal sheltered middle class teen who is pretentious, self-absorbed, pseudo-right on and longs to feel special and oppressed. He was written as a satire on that exact tendency in middle class teenagers/students.

A lot of things about genderism seem to suggest it’s the same kind of thing, at least in the way it’s taken up among younger people - and non-binary in particular is a claim to special status that rests on nothing - being “non binary” is normal, not special, not “trans” anything. Rejecting gender stereotypes is normal, it’s not “trans” anything.

RhubarbCustardy · 28/03/2021 23:41

Hardworking trying to debate with know-it-all teenagers who treat you as if you haven't a clue and accuse you of all sorts when you say the slightest thing that isnt"woke" I bloody well hate that expression. You can't make a joke about anything either. I have given up discussing certain topics. Was accused of being racist the other day as a I happened to say that many Chinese peoples diet includes rice on a daily basis.Apparently thats racist! Find it all draining and irritating.
?

Wandawomble · 28/03/2021 23:42

@WomanWithAWo

If I were your child, I would be angry at you. I am so tired of people preaching transphobia under the guise of feminism on mumsnet. I feel sorry for your sons girlfriend and I am glad he is supportive of her. It’s fine to have a genital preference as long as you don’t rub it in and claim that a straight male can’t be attracted to a trans woman. Super straight is definitely transphobic and gender critical feminists need to stop pretending to be the victims.
It’s ok to have a genital preference is it? Is that allowed then? Thanks! How very KIND of you.

As long as we don’t rub it in - what, you mean as long as we don’t talk about it? Most of us don’t care what straight men are into - we know that men generally are into some very weird things. I knew a man once who liked wanking into jam jars.

But for women to say they don’t want to sleep with their husbands who are now calling themselves women and their wives lesbians or for actual lesbians who don’t want to sleep with male bodied people, are they allowed to have a genital preference?
Maybe check with your overlords for the answer because right now you are sending mixed messages.

Zeev · 28/03/2021 23:43

Was accused of being racist the other day as a I happened to say that many Chinese peoples diet includes rice on a daily basis.

Haha what? Having lived in China, that is 100% accurate. Is there something... bad about eating rice?

Wandawomble · 28/03/2021 23:46

@RhubarbCustardy

Hardworking trying to debate with know-it-all teenagers who treat you as if you haven't a clue and accuse you of all sorts when you say the slightest thing that isnt"woke" I bloody well hate that expression. You can't make a joke about anything either. I have given up discussing certain topics. Was accused of being racist the other day as a I happened to say that many Chinese peoples diet includes rice on a daily basis.Apparently thats racist! Find it all draining and irritating. ?
They have no sense of humour, irony, historical knowledge and actually seem to be lacking conviction - hence needing to scream and have tantrums at their mothers. Growing up as a BAME girl living homeless I knew what being unsafe actually means. Some uppity little attention seekers saying they feel “unsafe” because someone talks about a celebrity is a pile of wank.
RhubarbCustardy · 28/03/2021 23:56

Zeev-I know!! I just have to laugh and wait until they mature and hope they can realise that some facts are facts! I don't mind that some of their opinions are a bit obscure and everything has to be pc ( although that is irritating) it's the attitude you get with it. Wandawomble- yeah mine aren't streetwise but I had to be. Sounds like you had it hard. Must have been really scary.

aliasundercover · 29/03/2021 00:07

N.A.T.

er, that's "Not All Teenagers". I know a fair few, and most of them have got their heads screwed on.
Let's be careful not to turn this into a generational thing.

Ploughingthrough · 29/03/2021 00:08

Good lord this is a crazy read. My children are not teens yet but I am not looking forward to it now! Maybe we will be into the next phase by then whatever it may be.

Cowbells · 29/03/2021 00:19

If I were your child, I would be angry at you.

@WomanWithAWo The OP's teenager was angry with her for calling Eddie Izzard 'He'. Eddie Izzard did a big interview in the guardian just last week saying he liked to skip between genders at whim and sometimes felt like a boy and sometimes like a girl. He also said he loved being a girl (he chose girl not woman btw) and using his bulk to challenge men in the street who mock his female self. This article was grotesquely placed next to news about a biological woman, Sarah Everard, who didn't have the male bulk to challenge her aggressor. Eddie Izzard thinks being a woman is a game. It isn't. But he himself claimed he is still a he sometimes and at other times a she.

So the OP should be shouted at for daring to call him male when he himself decides he's still male sometimes. And you think it's OK to be angry with the OP about this? You'd endorse a young man aggressing his mother for articulating this fact?

OK... That's an interesting version of feminism you are espousing.

Would you also endorse the male child aggressing Eddie Izzard for this? Or is Eddie - big, bolshy, bulky Eddie - allowed the right to be and say whatever he likes whenever he likes? Is it just biological women who should shut up and know their place or deserve to be the butt of male anger? Was OP asking for it?

AdHominemNonSequitur · 29/03/2021 01:26

I thought it was an excellent post. I agree completely. We are all gender non binary, since no one embodies the perfect masculine of perfect feminine outside of archetypes. It doesn't seem even slightly offensive to me, but honestly, so what if you are offended. Your easy offense, offends me.

caringcarer · 29/03/2021 01:42

I have had a conversation with son who told me there is a boy in his class he has known for several years who now says he is s girl. We discussed difference between males/females has layers. Biological XY/XX at chromosomal level. External genitalia as another level or do they have a penis or not, brain sex as males have slightly heavier brains than females. Then how people dress which can be to identify as either male or female but that changing Clothing/hair/make up might change their gender identity but not their sex. Only an operation can change a person's sex (legally on passports) and even then chromosomes remain unchanged. I have told him calling a person 'they' humours them but does not change their sex only gender and it may not be permanent as the.petson may wish to change their mind and return to biological sex. You could try to educate your son as above.

PotholeHellhole · 29/03/2021 01:45

Oops, my post didn't accompany the image.

I was just saying that if 90s fashions were going to come back, I'd like cargo pants to have a revival too. The pockets were awesome.

Preferably a revival of cargo pants instead of the homophobia, if that's an option.

vimtosogood · 29/03/2021 01:55

@PotholeHellhole

Oops, my post didn't accompany the image.

I was just saying that if 90s fashions were going to come back, I'd like cargo pants to have a revival too. The pockets were awesome.

Preferably a revival of cargo pants instead of the homophobia, if that's an option.

Cargo pants got rebranded as work trousers, they're all I ever wear. Grin
PotholeHellhole · 29/03/2021 02:07

Do you have ones with tassels, or are you a proper adult now? Grin

I positively dripped tassels back then.

waterlego · 29/03/2021 07:50

I feel sorry for your sons girlfriend and I am glad he is supportive of her.

Whoops, you’ve misgendered the girlfriend there. I expect they would feel unsafe in your home too.

JaneJeffer · 29/03/2021 07:55

Tut tut

Stratfordplace · 29/03/2021 08:00

Son’s partner sounds a right pain in the ass and a right little madam to boot. I wouldn’t welcome her into my home again if she feels so unsafe given my views.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 29/03/2021 08:01

@waterlego

I feel sorry for your sons girlfriend and I am glad he is supportive of her.

Whoops, you’ve misgendered the girlfriend there. I expect they would feel unsafe in your home too.

Whole bunch of assumptions there... isn’t girlfriend a word we oughtnt use anyway?
Butwasitherdriveway · 29/03/2021 08:20

@Zeev yes, very good with the witching hour analogy, also known as people that just don't agree with you Shock

waterlego · 29/03/2021 08:48

Whole bunch of assumptions there... isn’t girlfriend a word we oughtnt use anyway?

OP said that’s the word the son uses, so presumably the partner is ok with it.

SilverGlitterBaubles · 29/03/2021 09:09

They have no sense of humour, irony, historical knowledge and actually seem to be lacking conviction - hence needing to scream and have tantrums at their mothers. Growing up as a BAME girl living homeless I knew what being unsafe actually means. Some uppity little attention seekers saying they feel “unsafe” because someone talks about a celebrity is a pile of wank.

^
This 100%

toffeebutterpopcorn · 29/03/2021 09:14

Yup. I wonder what my mum would have thought of all this.

She was a war child and grew up in London - she knew what it was to be actually unsafe, saw the aftermath of bombings, all her dads team wiped out by a bomb (he was bomb disposal and the only one who survived one particular job), classmates killed in raids, neighbours coming back from POW camps, sleeping in the underground... she saw bodies - actual bodies - that’s unsafe. Not someone (who isn’t about to knife you) not saying words you want them to say.