Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

999 replies

JensonsAcolyte · 28/03/2021 08:45

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

OP posts:
SunsetBeetch · 29/03/2021 09:19

I honestly think this "I feel unsafe/threatened" is a power play and a way of bending people to your will. Either that or this generation is incredibly, incredibly fragile and spoilt.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 29/03/2021 09:21

I tried that once when I was about 4 and went to the dentist. He said I needed a filling (I was a toffee fiend) and thought that maybe if I cried he wouldn’t do it.

He wiped my eye, said ‘oh dear your eyes are leaking but I have to do the filling now’ - did the filling and I learned a valuable life lesson...

CrazyNeighbour · 29/03/2021 09:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Biscuitsanddoombar · 29/03/2021 09:32

Having people disagree with you is not “unsafe” what on Earth will your DS personfriend do when they get a job?

Comefromaway · 29/03/2021 09:36

I would say that she was no longer welcome in my house.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 29/03/2021 09:37

Now work in customer services I suppose! My niece (a little too old for this current thing) could never stick to a job because... she didn’t like being told what to do... I tried to explain to her...

She ended up setting up her own business - and, well, people telling her what to do is pretty much par for the course, so the business went belly up.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 29/03/2021 09:38

@Comefromaway

I would say that she was no longer welcome in my house.
I would be tempted because - well for one it’s a bloody insult isn’t if?

If you were swigging whisky out of a bottle and waving a loaded gun around then I’d say, yes that’s unsafe...

waterlego · 29/03/2021 09:40

The ‘unsafe’ thing is ridiculous- agree with PPs that it’s just an attempt to shut people up.

If the partner actually feels physically unsafe in the presence of the OP then they are not very good at risk analysis. GC women are very often lefties/middle aged/mothers. None of which are typically violent people (statistically speaking).

If the partner is not feeling physically at risk, then what do they mean by ‘unsafe’?

Intellectually unsafe? Because GC people make some good, logical points and they know they can’t easily argue with them?

Emotionally unsafe? Because other people’s words and opinions are hurtful to them?

I am trying to raise my children to be resilient. No one should be verbally abused, of course, and that would be unacceptable. But hearing things you don’t agree with and meeting people who don’t automatically like/respect you is part of life and something we all have to learn to cope with.

ANewCreation · 29/03/2021 09:41

Sympathies, OP.

All but one of my kids know what a woman is. Such a relief to talk to them, when the oldest can't see the wood for the trees.

When, years ago, the oldest told me that a girl in their y10 class had become a boy, I assumed that naturally the oldest would know that this was purely metaphorical. Metaphysical at most. That it was the same person but with shorter hair and a shorter name. Whatever floats your boat. Continue to be kind to them. Really thought nothing more of it.

But apparently it was not like this for oldest. They thought that you could literally do this. On a word, a complete change of sex. And, about a year or so later, oldest said that after thinking about it for a couple of months, they thought they might feel more comfortable as a girl.

I have a theory that this generation are so used to customising avatars, creating skins, deciding to play as the opposite to themselves and switching everything in an instant that they think the real world is up for grabs in the same way.

Real life is so 'vanilla', so normie, they hope to create something more interesting. Manipulating images of themselves, filters, curating their content is second nature to them. The fact that they don't know who anyone is online means also that they can be anyone online. "What's material reality got to do with anything?" says oldest, scornfully.

And it is very seductive. In an instant your stock rises. You get 'centred' and, in spite of your white male MC obvious privilege, you get to claim a little bit of oppression. Or 'queer' your relationship. A kid who was too scared to get their school leaver booster jab because "needles" suddenly talks about an extensive range of desired plastic surgery as if they are ordering at a fast food restaurant.

The other thing is that our kids do crave something to rebel off, to differentiate themselves.

As I see it, there has been a collapsing of the cultural difference between the generations.
Where my grandparents were brought up by Victorians and so passed on some of that baggage to my parents' generation, I think my generation's experience is more similar to that of my kids. We decided that we weren't going to parent in the same strict way as previous generations, we increasingly like similar music to our kids, enjoy the same films, maybe dress relatively similarly, went away to uni, went travelling, struggled to get jobs, houses etc

My husband has a somewhat colourful past and we used to joke that it would be pretty hard to shock us as parents.

How wrong we were!
Oldest found the 'gender identity' chink in the armour and we never saw it coming.

The embracing of a vegan, star signs, pansexual, antifa, ACAB, BLM identity was then just a matter of time and we were ready for that. It's a question of positioning yourself so you are not like your family.

In terms of talking, yes we generally now tend to avoid gender as a topic as it usually does not end well. "Adult human female" is, apparently, a transphobic dog whistle. Which is tough when you are talking to one. Who has just cooked your dinner.

The rage/demands for safety is partly because gender ideology has an unstable fallacy (sex ≠/= gender) at the heart of it and so these kids struggle to argue effectively. It's not their fault. The cognitive dissonance is painful.

What I am becoming better at doing is talking about adjacent subjects and helping develop critical thinking skills. So, pick the concept you wish to discuss and find a "non gender" example so you leave the cognitive dissonance/parallels with gender hanging in the air... Rachel Dolezal is good for talking about how wrong it is to appropriate the lived experience of others, for example. But it is exhausting.

The daft thing is that everyone knows what sex people are, hence why your son is able to be casually misogynistic towards you but not to your husband. The woke generation are horrified by racism but remarkably unbothered by their lazy sexism/ageism, as characterised by the Karen meme.

And, final proof that that it is a pretence that sex is so easy to change? If your DS was to be sexually active, only his non binary girlfriend would be at risk of getting pregnant...

CornishPastyDownUnder · 29/03/2021 09:45

fuckin hell..let them get on with it @JensonsAcolyte but not in your house! Kick them out&tell them they are cancelled&they go somewhere they feel"safe","validated" and keep their wokespeak to themselves
Its the 20:21 version of emo..gay&lez..ladette..I was all get pissed&sleep in the local park-hitch hikeall over uk to gigs&then backpack frequently around the world..i got over myself mid20s but was intensely resentful of anyone old/boring/dull/cliche or those that had2.4opinions,didnt question the status quo&hadnt ever travelled.
Im still probs70%this now-i just learnt how to tone it down as i got olderGrinHe'll get over himself too&herHmm..then itll be all he/she &love u mum..its just V100%atm lol

ThatsShitTryHarder · 29/03/2021 09:50

"Adult human female" is, apparently, a transphobic dog whistle. Which is tough when you are talking to one. Who has just cooked your dinner.

So true.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 29/03/2021 09:51

Or rather, talking to one who has made your dinner for the last time.

persistentwoman · 29/03/2021 09:51

Fab post ANewCreation among so many great posts.

This would be just another trial in bringing up teenagers if there weren't so many dangerous aspects of this for children in terms of their bodies and long term physical and mental health.

Juicyoranges · 29/03/2021 09:52

Excellent post @ANewCreation. I particularly like you point about atavars and trying on new skin. It does seem as if life online has become as real life for many people.

FightingTheFoo · 29/03/2021 10:00

@caringcarer

I have had a conversation with son who told me there is a boy in his class he has known for several years who now says he is s girl. We discussed difference between males/females has layers. Biological XY/XX at chromosomal level. External genitalia as another level or do they have a penis or not, brain sex as males have slightly heavier brains than females. Then how people dress which can be to identify as either male or female but that changing Clothing/hair/make up might change their gender identity but not their sex. Only an operation can change a person's sex (legally on passports) and even then chromosomes remain unchanged. I have told him calling a person 'they' humours them but does not change their sex only gender and it may not be permanent as the.petson may wish to change their mind and return to biological sex. You could try to educate your son as above.
All correct except you do t need an operation to change a passport or any document. I believe for passport, driving license etc you just need a letter from your doctor.

You don't need an operation to get a Gender Recognition Certificate either - just prove you've "lived as the opposite sex" for two years. What that actually means is anyone's guess.

FightingTheFoo · 29/03/2021 10:00

*DON'T

sashh · 29/03/2021 10:09

I've converted one person using the medical argument.

Ie if his girlfriend were to develop symptoms of asthma and came to my clinic (not that I have worked in this area for a long time) would he want her accurately diagnosed?

Your lung capacity is determined by you height, race and sex.

If I measure using the norms for a woman then lung capacity will be 'normal' but in reality his girlfriend is asthmatic but will not receive treatment. Asthma can kill.

I've been called a TERF for saying I would use the values for the person's sex not their gender but no matter how many drugs you take and operations you have your lungs remain the same and are dictated by sex.

I've not seen many trans patients but the ones I have understand this. I will address you as your chosen name, e polite just as I would with any patient, but I'm not going to risk your health / diagnosis to save your feelings.

RadandMad · 29/03/2021 10:13

Felt every inch of your anger and indignation when reading your post, OP. When did it become acceptable for kids to bully and insult their parents like that? If we'd behaved like that to ours, we'd probably have got slapped. I don't agree with violence, but you are under no obligation to tolerate that level of disrespect and misogyny in your own house, not from kids who are old enough to know better. In the long run, it will be good for them to see your reaction.

I've been in discussions like this with my own kids. Hold your ground, refuse to play the pronoun games and insist they address contrary arguments and evidence rather than dismiss it or refuse to look. Two of mine are now GC, one is wavering. You owe it to them to provide a beacon of sanity in this madness, and not to follow them down the rabbit hole. They'll thank you for it in the end.

RadandMad · 29/03/2021 10:15

@StillFemale

Applauding your stance. The hypocrisy of these kids who expect mums to do so much for them while lecturing us on our 'attitudes'. Sod that.

theleafandnotthetree · 29/03/2021 10:29

@Moondust001

Without getting into the subject, you admit that you got "shouty" and insulting about their opinions, and that you "told him he was a privileged, woke little shit". I simply can't imagine where these teenagers got their sense of critical engagement from. Could it be ... you?

Whether you like it or not, these young adults have a right to their own views and opinions, and they won't always be the same as yours. It actually doesn't matter who is right, or who passionately believes they are "right". It is about the ability to respect the views of others, and if you believe differently, to be able to discuss those views calmly and with intelligence. Calling your child a privileged, woke little shit doesn't really step up to that mark.

It must be great to be a perfect parent. I have similarly infuriating engagements with my 14 year old son about this and other topics and it has taken every ounce of willpower I have not to have called him much worse. The breathtaking arrogance of these largely middle class young people who generally have only ever taken from the world, who as a generation contribute least to their household of probably any set of young people in history, who have the fucking time to read all this crap because theyre not milking cows or helping with younger siblings or in a family business.....I doubt their contemporaries in Bangladesh or Mexico even in working class communities on their own country have time for this shit. It absolutely boils my piss. And yes, we do have to be the adult, suck it up to a certsin extent but man, its hard
WindyPudding · 29/03/2021 10:31

It’s interesting to hear about teens who literally believe people actually change sex the moment they declare that (or claim to believe that).

In the Twitter arguments and media debates among adults that I’ve been aware of, TRAs try to convince us that sex doesn’t matter because sex is a spectrum, only dependent on hormones, you can have a trans brain or other pseudo-science. I haven’t seen the argument that you literally switch sex in an instant, a la transubstantiation. Yet that idea seems to be what some teens end up taking from all this - which is bizarre as it would totally negate transness itself.

I agree with PPs that the “no debate” and anger and “unsafe” vulnerability are because arguing a rational case isn’t available to them.

But I do wonder if the fashion/coolness trend-based aspect of this will be the undoing of it, thanks to the same teens. As the balance tips, sex-based feminism will rise, in fact it already is, and reality will become cool.

Zeev · 29/03/2021 10:40

@WindyPudding

It’s interesting to hear about teens who literally believe people actually change sex the moment they declare that (or claim to believe that).

In the Twitter arguments and media debates among adults that I’ve been aware of, TRAs try to convince us that sex doesn’t matter because sex is a spectrum, only dependent on hormones, you can have a trans brain or other pseudo-science. I haven’t seen the argument that you literally switch sex in an instant, a la transubstantiation. Yet that idea seems to be what some teens end up taking from all this - which is bizarre as it would totally negate transness itself.

I agree with PPs that the “no debate” and anger and “unsafe” vulnerability are because arguing a rational case isn’t available to them.

But I do wonder if the fashion/coolness trend-based aspect of this will be the undoing of it, thanks to the same teens. As the balance tips, sex-based feminism will rise, in fact it already is, and reality will become cool.

I've heard of some autistic teenagers who believe transitioning will make them actual males - penis and testicles appear after hormones etc. I am guessing the black-and-white thinking often manifested by autism spectrum individuals has an effect. (Before anyone jumps in with "how insulting", my kids are on the spectrum too and I do know NAAALT or whatever).
WindyPudding · 29/03/2021 10:43

And that’s incredibly worrying if kids are going down this route with such a belief. When it’s taboo to say “you can’t actually change sex”, and if they are surrounded by affirming teachers, parents and gender clinicians, they may actually literally be walking into this with no clue.

I didn’t think I could get any more horrified but... :(

theleafandnotthetree · 29/03/2021 10:52

@Justhadathought

After prolonged personal comment, I ended up telling him he was 'ideologically brainwashed'. He hasn't spoken to me for three days now. He's so crabby and emotionally retentive.
I dont mean to be rude or intrusive but I couldnt be doing this, having these kind of dynamics with a 27 year old. We are obliged to do so with our teenagers to an extent but certainly not beyond that. Why is he still living at home for the love of God? Let him try out his ideals in the real world
ekidmxcl · 29/03/2021 10:53

You are as bad as them though OP. You have your ideology and they have theirs. Personally I don’t agree with either and think the solution would be to stay away from any topics concerning sex/gender/terf. I also wonder if you can see the irony in calling them navel gazers - there’s a lot of that going on with feminism as well.