I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

Everyone has family rows, it's fine, it's unlikely you've done lasting damage to your relationship. It's good for kids to realise their mothers are not just their life facilitators, they also have lives, experiences and opinions of their own.

However.

The girlfriend claiming she doesn't feel safe in your house needs addressing.

She's either using the word safe to mean something different to what it does mean (similar to her use of the word woman, no doubt), or she's actually deeply insulting and should no longer be welcome in your house unless she has a bloody good think about the slander she has bruited about you.

My friend didn't feel safe in her home from the age of 10, because her brother started to sexually abuse her. I don't remember ever feeling safe in my home as a child because
every now and then my parents' normal smacking behaviour would escalate to vicious levels including pushing, punching and kicking and I would genuinely feel frightened that I'd be seriously injured.

I feel utter disgust when middle class kids who have known nothing but child-centred parenting and economic security claim to feel unsafe when someone in the same building as them has opinions with which they disagree. They have no fucking clue what it's like to really feel unsafe, not because of someone's views but because of their behaviour and if your DS doesn't get this, then your accusation that he's a privileged little shit is pretty accurate.

there are just always going to be a LOT OF people who are fundamentally wrong

In particular, there are always going to be a lot of teens who are wrong. No surprise there - they lack experience and are idealistic, and they are enticed by ideologies - that's normal.

But this particular kind of wrongness could destroy your teen's life – as well as more generally being on a mission to destroy women's sex based rights, and being supported by misled (IMO) schools and officialdom.

If my teens bleated on about anarchism or veganism for example, I could have a discussion about the ins and outs but it wouldn't matter especially. I'd expect them to develop a more nuanced understanding with age, like most people do.

But with this, it could be too late. They could have had body parts removed or disabled permanently by the time they realise it makes no sense and changing sex does not actually take place.

IMO it is wrong to affirm the transgenderist view because if they did go down that path and I hadn't challenged it, I'd be partly responsible.

@flyingfoxkins and @HelpfulBelle - just as an extra to that twitter thread from Lucy Mcdonagh of the Deptford Project, there's this article which gives a bit more background (scroll down to the second half.)

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity/

It really does shine a spotlight on the whole progressive, bekind, 'unsafe' nonsense.

@ScreamingBeans

I feel utter disgust when middle class kids who have known nothing but child-centred parenting and economic security claim to feel unsafe when someone in the same building as them has opinions with which they disagree. They have no fucking clue what it's like to really feel unsafe, not because of someone's views but because of their behaviour and if your DS doesn't get this, then your accusation that he's a privileged little shit is pretty accurate.

This enraged me too.

As an update, DS has gone out but before he did we had a hug and I asked if we are still friends and he said yes. I said good, don’t ever call me a bigot again and he said yep and went out.

So a shaky truce but at least he’s speaking to me. I imagine he feels as bad about the row as I do as we don’t ever fall out usually.

There's that apocryphal Mark Twain quote:

When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years.

I think I, more than DH have, entered into those years with DD1 - so straight arguing isn't going to work as she's already inclined to be dismissive of my thoughts though she's polite.

Normally id be on DS side but he's been an idiot and actually has no idea what he is talking about

DD is also wrong for discussing it so flippantly.

You are not in the wrong.

[quote JensonsAcolyte]@ScreamingBeans

I feel utter disgust when middle class kids who have known nothing but child-centred parenting and economic security claim to feel unsafe when someone in the same building as them has opinions with which they disagree. They have no fucking clue what it's like to really feel unsafe, not because of someone's views but because of their behaviour and if your DS doesn't get this, then your accusation that he's a privileged little shit is pretty accurate.

This enraged me too.

As an update, DS has gone out but before he did we had a hug and I asked if we are still friends and he said yes. I said good, don’t ever call me a bigot again and he said yep and went out.

So a shaky truce but at least he’s speaking to me. I imagine he feels as bad about the row as I do as we don’t ever fall out usually.[/quote]
OP in the nicest possible way you have a strange relationship with your teens. You are not friends. And you don't fall out.

Well obviously ‘still friends’ is just vernacular for ‘are we ok’.

And we don’t really fall out, he’s always been a placid and biddable kid other than minor disagreements over chores/homework. DD and I have always locked horns but I’ve rarely had to raise my voice to DS.

I feel utter disgust when middle class kids who have known nothing but child-centred parenting and economic security claim to feel unsafe when someone in the same building as them has opinions with which they disagree.

This with bells on. It's the same disgust as when I hear "literal violence" used for pronoun mistakes and such.

I watched the news last week - civil wars that we never hear about (some have been running for decades now), children who have lost their families and walked for days to find a refugee camp, a little boy covered in burns, people stick thin starving... then I see a well-fed and clothed teen screaming literal violence and saying their boyfriend mum makes them feel ‘unsafe’???? - they have charities and telethons, companies raising funds, politicians crying over them and passing laws for perceived protection, pharma companies researching and marketing the drugs, tolerance shown to outrageous behaviour, threats and attacks issued by them excused...

It actually makes me feel angry/sick/sad to see this - heads need to be extracted from backsides.

@JensonsAcolyte

Well obviously ‘still friends’ is just vernacular for ‘are we ok’.

And we don’t really fall out, he’s always been a placid and biddable kid other than minor disagreements over chores/homework. DD and I have always locked horns but I’ve rarely had to raise my voice to DS.

No I get that, but I'm talking about the language used , which might explain the lack of respect as shown by DS in your OP. He sees you as his pal.

@Zeev

I feel utter disgust when middle class kids who have known nothing but child-centred parenting and economic security claim to feel unsafe when someone in the same building as them has opinions with which they disagree.

This with bells on. It's the same disgust as when I hear "literal violence" used for pronoun mistakes and such.

This with a cathedral full of bells on !!!

@Zeev

I feel utter disgust when middle class kids who have known nothing but child-centred parenting and economic security claim to feel unsafe when someone in the same building as them has opinions with which they disagree.

This with bells on. It's the same disgust as when I hear "literal violence" used for pronoun mistakes and such.

There are always girls like this in high school, in my day they were controlling and emotionally abusive and didn't have a huge amount of backing, but now they can behave like this and have backing because they claim they're being subject to 'literal violence' and 'dont feel safe' and people either agree and back them up, or risk being socially isolated. What a weird time we're in

Rock and roll this isn't.

Indeed. Undirected youthful rebellion is healthy, and generally not dangerous.

Directed youthful rebellion is very dangerous.

"When your teens disagree with your views, that doesn't mean you have to change your views, or not change them but cover them up and pretend to agree. There's nothing wrong with stating your views and why you think them. In fact it is good for young people IMO to understand that people have opposing views and have reasons for having them. It helps them think through reason and evidence and what it means. Just affirming everything they think does no one any favours, especially if there's evidence they are being brainwashed and their beliefs don't rest on anything that can be rationally argued."

I agree with this 100% but if it escalates out of control and leaves both parties upset, aggrieved and not listened to, then sometimes it's more diplomatic to avoid the contentious subject if this is the likely outcome.
You most definitely do not, as a parent need to pretend to agree or change your view. Unless you feel they have a point, of course.

@NecessaryScene1

Rock and roll this isn't.

Indeed. Undirected youthful rebellion is healthy, and generally not dangerous.

Directed youthful rebellion is very dangerous.

It's one thing for young people to have irrational movements that make them feel empowered and galvanised, and mainstream media outlets giving them power and backing to the detriment of their own health, safety, well-being and family relationships

I feel utter disgust when middle class kids who have known nothing but child-centred parenting and economic security claim to feel unsafe when someone in the same building as them has opinions with which they disagree.

In the name of empathy (which, by the way, is not the same thing as the uniquotous "be kind"):

Of this is your upbringing, this MAY be the most terrifying thing you've ever experienced. Fear, by definition, isn't a very rational situation ...

And I'm saying this in my function as "used to be deployed to an actual war zone as part of my job". A.k.a. someone who thinks about the average adult's fears "ahahaha, oh, honey! Look, if it's NOT a projectile flying into your general direction: relax! At least you'll be alive to think about how to fix this shit ..."

Something that being, literally, afraid for my life has taught me was: no, it wasn't actually, subjectively speaking, scarier than the stuff that had terrified me before it was an actual life-or-death situation. If anything, the contrary was true: when actually faced with "this might be it - you might never see the other end of 30, here", I was surprisingly calm and composed compared to how terrified I'd previously felt over the possibility of "Meaningless Boyfriend #7" fancying Gemma more than myself.

So ... yeah, BUT OF COURSE it's bonkers, rationally speaking. But also: it's just how humans work.

Don't judge too harshly!

Ps: excuse typos, on phone!

@Wearywithteens

See this is the one area the working classes have the advantage - we allow our kids the freedoms of adulthood but they would be mercilessly taken the piss out of, or socially excluded, if they came out with this claptrap. How do you think good state secondary teachers control whole classes of these insufferable twats? They use a subtle combination of gentle mockery and intellectual superiority.

Try a good round of reserve psychology ‘yes, of course people just instantly change sex - ok oh look I’m a man - they get a better deal in life so under your rules I’ve decided to be a man. No don’t say mum I might kill myself. Oh goody no more menopause for me! Oh I’m being fucking ridiculous? Well that’s literal violence - from my own children. Etc etc’ I could gleefully keep that shit up for days just to make a point about what utter crap it all is.

I mostly agree, but let's not be flippant about the suicide.

Introduce them to this lady on Tiktok (( I'm far too old and grumpy for tiktok but dd got me into it)) I think she's fab.

vm.tiktok.com/ZMeUK63LA/

@TheFnozwhowasmirage spot on.

Why on Earth did that post get deleted?

No-one who is an adult should be feeling "utter disgust" at the opinions of a teenager.

No-one who is an adult should mock a child and call them a "woke piece of shit" or whatever it is.

Disagree, yes. Think they are misguided and wrong. But they are teenagers and they are growing and developing. Don't confuse the roles.

How can we teach teens to tolerate difference? To be in a room and feel safe with someone whose opinions we disagree with (which the girlfriend in the OP's post has clearly had such difficulties with, and for which she expects such (unreasonable) accommodations?

By modelling this to them. Show them - how you can disagree and tolerate the discomfort and the "not feeling safe" feeling.

They can then internalise this and grow more resilient.

If we lash out we are doing just what they are doing, and they are the junior party here.

@JensonsAcolyte

Why on Earth did that post get deleted?

I didn't report it, but I suspect the flippancy about suicide as I highlighted earlier.