I had the most awful row with my teenagers yesterday

[JensonsAcolyte]

Both totally TWAW adherents.

DS is 18, his girlfriend is Non Binary and goes by a made up name (male Greek god). I am polite and go along with pronouns and use their chosen name.

For some reason Eddie Izzard came up at dinner time and I ‘misgendered’ them. DS really started laying into me about my bigotry so I played him the clip of Eddie saying Eddie has boy mode and girl mode and uses both sets of pronouns (I've tied myself in knots there as I don’t want to be deleted).

It came out in the conversation that DS believes, absolutely and 100%, that Izzard has changed sex. Actually changed sex. And that if DH came down for breakfast this morning and announced he was now a woman then DS would absolutely 100% believe that he had changed sex overnight.

DD was chiming in at this point and said that actually she would like to go by she/they as sometimes she identifies as ‘less female’. I was a bit irate by this point and I’m afraid I said that is navel gazing bollocks (oops).

Anyway it all got a bit shouty, and then DS dropped in that ‘some lesbians have genital preferences, and ultimately that’s transphobic but nobody’s trying to force anyone to have sex with anyone’ and I lost my shit a bit. I’d hoped this nonsense was confined to Twitter tbh and I hadn’t really seen it in the wild.

I told him he was a privileged, woke little shit. That lesbians my age have spent their entire lives having to justify their sexuality, being told they just haven’t met the right man, not to mention the sexual assaults and corrective rapes. And now are being told they are BIGOTS for not including penis. I was really angry. He then turned round and said the reason his girlfriend (and yes he calls them his girlfriend which is a whole nother eye roll) doesn’t like coming here is because I’m well known for being a Terf and she feels unsafe.

I’ve basically left it as saying I don’t adhere to your religion but that doesn’t make me hateful or phobic, we had a bit more of an argument where he tried to say it’s not a religion but actually I think I made that point quite clear. I don’t believe in God but that doesn’t mean I hate Christians, I don’t believe people can change sex but that doesn’t make me Transphobic.

I’ve woken up this morning and I just still feel sick about it all. He called me some dreadful things, bigot, hateful, dangerous. I said some things I regret, particularly about the arrant nonsense that is non binary, I’m usually a lot more measured than that to avoid offence but I was just so angry.

Is anyone else having this with their teens? I could do with a bit of solidarity, advice maybe or just a hand hold.

@Moirarose2021

Irreversible damage speaks about why its mostly the middle class kids getting caught up in this nonscence, and how teenagers need something to rebel against which is difficult when you have liberal parents/ adults surrounding you, makes a lot of sense and hopefully the upcoming gen z will rebel against the current older gen z / millennials

I'm in a very working class community and it's come from the schools - assemblies and culture - there's a toxic male culture that is excused and then tolerance of changing genders and names at school.

I had talked to them before school started with the assemblies and I still asked probing questions, but I can see them swallowing things.
It’s wider and more insidious – youtubers they watch for other topics casually dropping in things and follow up with idea of disagreeing make you bad– YA books I read show horning the topic and ideas in.,
I counter with other books and ideas and try and keep an eye on things but it’s harder older they get. When DD1 insisted JK was transphobic I asked her if she'd read what she's written - no well you should as reports are unreliable.

She's looked disapproving when I've mention buying some of her books since for other family members - but I've also had conversations around many well-known male authors having views we'd question today and how damaging cancel culture is. It doesn’t help DD1 is at age where I know nothing though DH on side – but questions and wider perspectives are my main weapons.

I wouldn’t tolerate a disrespectful tone or attitude but I don’t think you change minds even teenage ones by shouting or backing people into corners.

@twiceasnice222

Teenagers are supposed to rebel against society. It's just what they do. Being 'woke' is the latest cause for this. Just tell them they'll understand more when they grow up and leave it at that.

Don't get too hung up on what teenagers believe in. We were
all stupid at that age.

But they’re not rebelling against society. That’s the whole difference between this and actual “teen rebellions” - they’re not anti-establishment at all; on the contrary, the whole Establishment is fully behind them. Government, politicians, media, NHS, academia, schools, corporate Britain, sporting bodies, the prisons service, CPS, judiciary, etc etc. The list goes on and on and on.

That’s what makes this so very frightening, and extremely dangerous, because there is real power behind this movement, real adult authority and power, but it’s being falsely framed as a “progressive” youth movement which is challenging the old order.

The analogies that other posters have drawn between the adoption of this ideology by younger people and the phenomena of the Hitler Youth and the red guard in China are much more accurate. Rock and roll this isn't.

@AcornAutumn

No, what fresh happened?

I think they need to hear common sense and reason. It’s seems as if we are going through a cultural revolution at the moment. How long before our own children are denouncing us and we are dragged off to a gulag for re-education?

I've gave them books and audio books of 1984 and wild Swans years ago trying to help them question things - drip drip background noise.

told him he was a privileged, woke little shit.*

Really not the best way to argue

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g - good on you for explaining that issue with PIE so clearly. It's far more analogous to what is happening now that gay rights. I am so so sick of being told that concern about trans issues = transphobia and is just like homophobia. Apples are not oranges but transthink says they are and it's so hard to untangle this for people who think logical thinking is immaterial to any argument.

[quote Ritasueandbobtoo9]@AcornAutumn

No, what fresh happened?[/quote]
There was criticism over some of the ads

Here's one

I can see the funny side but...

Can't believe you called your teen a shit! Shows just how unnecessarily angry you're getting over this that it's interfering with your relationship with your kids! Maybe you need a different hobby

I can't believe the OP is getting so much support on this.

I'm basically a terf, but shouting at a 16 year old about is never going to work. You're just going o alienate them even more and almost prove them right to themselves at least.

Teenagers are just teenagers and their brains haven't developed into adults yet

When DD1 insisted JK was transphobic I asked her if she'd read what she's written

I bet the answer was no. DS1 started banging on about her transphobia but had to admit he hadn't read her article. Why are they so keen to hate her (powerful, self supporting, independent woman who walked out on an abusive man and made her own millions - hmm, why indeed?) but so lacking in curiosity at what she has actually written.

Talking "But they’re not rebelling against society. That’s the whole difference between this and actual “teen rebellions” - they’re not anti-establishment at all; on the contrary, the whole Establishment is fully behind them. Government, politicians, media, NHS, academia, schools, corporate Britain, sporting bodies, the prisons service, CPS, judiciary, etc etc. The list goes on and on and on.

That’s what makes this so very frightening, and extremely dangerous, because there is real power behind this movement, real adult authority and power, but it’s being falsely framed as a “progressive” youth movement which is challenging the old order.

The analogies that other posters have drawn between the adoption of this ideology by younger people and the phenomena of the Hitler Youth and the red guard in China are much more accurate. Rock and roll this isn't."

-

Worth c&p.

This is so true. This is led by very senior powerful and just one of many issues where there's only one view that will allow you to keep your job.

@apurplecar

I can't believe the OP is getting so much support on this.

I'm basically a terf, but shouting at a 16 year old about is never going to work. You're just going o alienate them even more and almost prove them right to themselves at least.

Teenagers are just teenagers and their brains haven't developed into adults yet

And all the adults who believe the same thing, or claim to?

Look, I don't agree with her teenager's opinions but falling out about it is madness. It's the sort of thing that can affect relationships.

If the op can't debate with her teenagers then they shouldn't talk about things they disagree on.

Great post, @TalkingtoLangClegintheDark.

Good to hear some sense here.

Arguing with 18 year old children over this is cazy.

Being a parent to older children sometimes involves just keepinng it zipped.

@AcornAutumn,

There was criticism over some of the ads

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoqmTemcrMg

..but that's a really funny, well made ad. The "role reversal" aspect is what makes it funny. It's possible to lose perspective here...

The ds is 18 not 16, still a teenager but a legal adult, how dare he tell op that his girlfriend doesn't feel safe around her, as if she is some sort of nasty violent criminal. All while sitting comfortably at her table, eating her food, calling her names, how fucking dare he?

[quote JustSpeculation]@AcornAutumn,

There was criticism over some of the ads

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoqmTemcrMg

..but that's a really funny, well made ad. The "role reversal" aspect is what makes it funny. It's possible to lose perspective here...[/quote]
I did say I can see why it's funny.

Sorry, I was just dumping my brain on the page because there's nowt else to do!

As you were.

@WelcomeMarch

It’s all rebellion.

No it’s not. It’s all conformity to their peer group.

Bingo

But, surely "all the adults who believe tue same thing" are a different story altogether?

Look, there are just always going to be a LOT OF people who are fundamentally wrong in this world. Whether on this topic or any other. That's just a fact (and you can refuse to accept it but ... good luck with that one!)

I see how, given my own background, I'm biased here, but: surely the objective within a family setting has got to be "however much we disagree, we can still be family and can still enjoy one another's company"?

I fully understand how frustrating it must be to be in OP's position. Or that of her kids, for that matter. As it happens, on substance, I'm with OP.

I just happen to fundamentally disagree that your family, of all places, is the spot for anyone to be "taking a stand". And, see upthread, I'm saying this as someone who's actually done it. I don't regret it, either, I just wish a different outcome would have been an option.

@speakout

Good to hear some sense here.

Arguing with 18 year old children over this is cazy.

Being a parent to older children sometimes involves just keepinng it zipped.

Oh do give over. Telling a woman to keep quiet. I'd be telling the rude teen not to insult his mother.

@apurplecar

I can't believe the OP is getting so much support on this.

I'm basically a terf, but shouting at a 16 year old about is never going to work. You're just going o alienate them even more and almost prove them right to themselves at least.

Teenagers are just teenagers and their brains haven't developed into adults yet

18 not 16.

Look, I don't agree with her teenager's opinions but falling out about it is madness. It's the sort of thing that can affect relationships.

Something that can and does also affect relationships is when a teenager identifies as trans and is affirmed by everyone and goes through puberty blockers/cross sex hormones/sometimes surgery and then realises it hasn't made them happier, and they didn't actually want to be the opposite sex, they were just struggling with their feelings about their body and/or gender roles, and that that could have been challenged. "Why didn't anyone challenge me?" This is happening now.

When your teens disagree with your views, that doesn't mean you have to change your views, or not change them but cover them up and pretend to agree. There's nothing wrong with stating your views and why you think them. In fact it is good for young people IMO to understand that people have opposing views and have reasons for having them. It helps them think through reason and evidence and what it means. Just affirming everything they think does no one any favours, especially if there's evidence they are being brainwashed and their beliefs don't rest on anything that can be rationally argued.

@AcornAutumn

@ContractClockAndCrucible

Hand hold from me. I don't go there with my youngest DD, who's 23, since a big row about JKR. I'd love to sit down with her and have a rational discussion, but the TWAW ideologues, by definition, don't do rational. It's all shouting and flouncing.

Absolutely the same here, even down to DDs age... She suggested, after a mild debate including her called JKR a transphobe, that i watch Contrapoint, a YouTuber, admittedly, very articulate and actually interesting to watch, ( I recommend them). I quietly watched, it did not change my opinion but spent the next 20 minutes saying how amazing Contrapointe was, so she felt she'd won the argument, she'd persuaded me to change my POV and all was peaceful. And I felt I'd swerved a full blown bullet. NEVER will I embark on anything to do with this subject with my teens again. Hand hold here, OP