British Cycling Consultation on Transgender Policy

[lorisparkle]

Thought this might be of interest

www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20201009-British-Cycling-publishes-Transgender-and-Non-Binary-Participation-policy-0

Women's menstrual cycles cause a host of issues for women and girls all over the world, in a world that sees men as default

I think that it's really important to understand what the challenges are and there may well be small changes that will make a big difference.

With sports the most obvious one is... With martial arts and cricket how many talented girls get put off around puberty because all white outfits...!

However. If the purpose of focusing in on this is in order to find a way to let male sex people compete with/ against women then it's a no

Yet again women's biology is only if interest when it's around something that men want

These are issues and I admit I don’t have all the answers as it’s complex
But I won’t just shut the debate down because I don’t have the answers or ignore posts.

Great.

So tell us then why women and girls should have to be put into harmful situations (contact sport) or plain old miss out on opportunities that provide women with the chance to gain financial, educational, or just participation opportunities, in the meantime while these ‘issues’ are worked out?

If you listen to Sharron Davies about what she and other swimmers missed out on because at the time no one could prove doping of the East Germans (iirc) with testosterone at the time. It went on for years and many women missed their opportunities because of it.

This is a repeat of that situation in the way that women and girls will have their lives changed negatively, some irreparably because the sporting bodies chose to take this direction instead of proving fairness to start with. Why? Because ‘no debate’ was allowed.

And isn’t that just the same for anyone at park run and In life that there will always be someone faster

Oh dear, no it won't always be like that. At a park run there will be a fastest man and a fastest woman. If transwomen are included as women, then the chances are that there will be a fastest man and another fast man who described himself as a woman who will be recorded as the fastest woman.

In this case the fastest woman will have lost out.

OwningAllMyMistakes

"In life that there will always be someone faster it’s life get over it and that has nothing to do with TransWomen taking part but your resentment at them taking part in a park run get over it get over yourself"

Well, the mask has well and truly been lifted here, according to you, the women just have to put up with it and shut up.
Typical misogynistic attitude.

OwningAllMyMistakes

"In life that there will always be someone faster it’s life get over it and that has nothing to do with TransWomen taking part but your resentment at them taking part in a park run get over it get over yourself"

That just says it all doesn’t it! Get over it little women. Why should I not fight for the first female spot at park run. Why are you telling me and other women and girls to just let a born male take our winning spots. That has infuriated me. To be honest park run isn’t a major issue as they jumped years ago but you have now clarified exactly how you feel about women’s sports - get over yourself you said. Classic.

And isn’t that just the same for anyone at park run and In life that there will always be someone faster it’s life get over it and that has nothing to do with TransWomen taking part but your resentment at them taking part in a park run get over it get over yourself and enjoy your park runs

Shall we substitute 'park run' for 'Olympic cycling event' then?

What is the difference to you?

'
"In life that there will always be someone faster it’s life get over it and that has nothing to do with TransWomen taking part but your resentment at them taking part in a park run get over it get over yourself"'

I have read the other responses to this comment and agree with them.

While reading the responses I realised something else though. Generalisations follow!

Sports and athletic competitions were invented by men for men to showcase the things men are good at and see who was the best.

This attitude has persisted.

I have read and heard so many men say things like. What's the point of women's sport. It's boring. They aren't as good as the men. It's not exciting to watch. The women's competitions are second class and who is interested in second class. Why is it on the telly. Etc etc etc

It suddenly felt to me that the comment really came from that place- the perspective of a sexist male sports fan

The women aren't really competing. They can't. The men are the real deal. So what if a woman comes first second or third against the women? It's meaningless. They aren't 'the best'. The best is a man. And in fact lots of other men who are better than the 'best' woman.

So why are they being so precious about it? No one cares and it's not a victory. If some other people want to join in and they win, so what? They're rubbish anyway.

@Feelinghothothottoday

OwningAllMyMistakes

"In life that there will always be someone faster it’s life get over it and that has nothing to do with TransWomen taking part but your resentment at them taking part in a park run get over it get over yourself"

That just says it all doesn’t it! Get over it little women. Why should I not fight for the first female spot at park run. Why are you telling me and other women and girls to just let a born male take our winning spots. That has infuriated me. To be honest park run isn’t a major issue as they jumped years ago but you have now clarified exactly how you feel about women’s sports - get over yourself you said. Classic.

I think your taking it too literal and if you feel I’m patronising you I’m not. But it’s your own resentment of trans women that drives your own issues with regards to running in park run.

and owning I'd really like an answer to this.

'And isn’t that just the same for anyone at park run and In life that there will always be someone faster it’s life get over it and that has nothing to do with TransWomen taking part but your resentment at them taking part in a park run get over it get over yourself and enjoy your park runs'

How do you feel about competitions for people with disabilities?

I have a disability. I have 'got over it' thanks. But I enjoy watching the Paralympians. Your logic says that through all levels it's ok for people without disabilities to compete against them and take the win. Just get over it, right?

And what happens when the men's marathon is won by a man in a wheelchair, which it immediately would be. All fine and dandy?

(I am not comparing women to disabled people! But as a woman with a disability that immediately struck me about that post).

Sport has sex categories to make it sporting rather than unfair and pointless for women.

@NiceGerbil

' "In life that there will always be someone faster it’s life get over it and that has nothing to do with TransWomen taking part but your resentment at them taking part in a park run get over it get over yourself"'

I have read the other responses to this comment and agree with them.

While reading the responses I realised something else though. Generalisations follow!

Sports and athletic competitions were invented by men for men to showcase the things men are good at and see who was the best.

This attitude has persisted.

I have read and heard so many men say things like. What's the point of women's sport. It's boring. They aren't as good as the men. It's not exciting to watch. The women's competitions are second class and who is interested in second class. Why is it on the telly. Etc etc etc

It suddenly felt to me that the comment really came from that place- the perspective of a sexist male sports fan

The women aren't really competing. They can't. The men are the real deal. So what if a woman comes first second or third against the women? It's meaningless. They aren't 'the best'. The best is a man. And in fact lots of other men who are better than the 'best' woman.

So why are they being so precious about it? No one cares and it's not a victory. If some other people want to join in and they win, so what? They're rubbish anyway.

I so disagree with your responses towards my comment,it’s hasn’t come from the perspective of a male sports fan at all it came from the attitude of some one who doesn’t see the point of moaning about a ruddy park run and those that take part.

Women’s sports and participation is valid important and even more important than men’s but while it’s men that are holding the purse strings it’s not going to get the financing and numbers women’s sports deserves so I disagree with any comments that are put out there as if I didn’t support women’s sports or women in sports.
Have you looked in your local book shops maybe do that and look a the sports section and see how many books on the sports biography section are there and available I grant you,the women on the shelves are almost invisible and even on that level women need representation in sport so people can see them be inspired and represent.

So on what planet does it make sense for men who think they are women to be allowed to participate & compete in women’s sports meaning even fewer women taking part?

women need representation in sport so people can see them be inspired and represent.

But if women are being represented by transwomen in their sport, how is that helping women?

@NiceGerbil

and owning I'd really like an answer to this.

'And isn’t that just the same for anyone at park run and In life that there will always be someone faster it’s life get over it and that has nothing to do with TransWomen taking part but your resentment at them taking part in a park run get over it get over yourself and enjoy your park runs'

How do you feel about competitions for people with disabilities?

I have a disability. I have 'got over it' thanks. But I enjoy watching the Paralympians. Your logic says that through all levels it's ok for people without disabilities to compete against them and take the win. Just get over it, right?

And what happens when the men's marathon is won by a man in a wheelchair, which it immediately would be. All fine and dandy?

(I am not comparing women to disabled people! But as a woman with a disability that immediately struck me about that post).

Well thanks for the spot light on his issue,it appears that you have the issue again I didn’t mention anything about any disability so naturally and sarcastically you dismiss any empathy I might have towards any body with disabilities, I am able bodied but that doesn’t mean I don’t have empathy to anyone disabled or disabilities not all are visible so thank you for that. I see what your getting at and how would you like to have your participation in sport removed as your comparing a disability against an able bodied person as an advantage and it’s a ruse to compare male athletes to female and allow them in to competing, sneaky I give you that and what your implying is that trans women are some kind of alpha male that’s transitioned to compete against women and it’s just fear mongering.

“But it’s your own resentment of trans women that drives your own issues with regards to running in park run”

No resentment of transwomen at all. Resentment at transwomen taking girls and women’s places in sport.

I could t give a flying fuck if a TW is the most hopelessly inept person ever to take up a sport

They’re still male, they don’t belong in women’s sports.

What possible justification is there for women to give up their places ti these men other than beeeee kiiiiind??

It’s incredible how much resistance there is to women saying no to men

there would have to be some thing to allow for the issue of menstrual cycles in women to that of the non menstrual cycles of trans women

Where are you going with that OwningAllMyMistakes? Firstly, what's a "non-menstrual cycle"? Secondly how are British Cycling currently synchronising the menstrual cycles of all female competitors at the moment?

Owning I appreciate your post about funding and participation.

On the durability thing I wasn't very being sarcastic. Your post just made me think that way as someone who has a physical disability from birth, and essentially had to sit out of PE from school. I know that would be a dream for a lot of people but in real life going and reading a book on your own for an hour while all your friends run around is pretty crappy.

I find the dismissal of anything but higher echelon a bit off. People are competitive at all levels. It gets many up and out of bed, it motivates. It feels good to win at sport or do well (I assume!). Certainly when I see a child winning a race at sports day or a sprinter winning the Olympic gold the joy and triumph looks pretty similar!

I see that you are well aware of the issues with women, girls and sport in the UK. I'm not sure you've explained why you want males to be included in female sports if that's what they want? I don't get it.

Have you looked in your local book shops maybe do that and look a the sports section and see how many books on the sports biography section are there and available I grant you,the women on the shelves are almost invisible and even on that level women need representation in sport so people can see them be inspired and represent.

Do you understand that women face particular challenges that make it harder for them to be more visible in sport?

If elite women need to be more visible in sport to inspire young women at entry level, who will a transwoman inspire and how will that help young girls to enter sport?

Do you understand that transwomen, especially late transitioners face different challenges in their lives? Many will have had most of their lives enjoying full male privilege in training, sport, facilities etc.

Do you agree with the US Senator that confirmed they would be happy with a female hockey team (or similar) being made up of all male born athletes?

What happens to the girl hockey players?

Firstly I don’t think it’s for any trans women to tell anyone what they can or can’t offer to be included in anything, do you go around with a bag full of reasons why you should be included in anything you choose to do or have to justify it to anyone of course you don’t.

So does this mean that you think everyone should be allowed to compete in whichever category they prefer, without having to justify it?

So any man should be allowed to compete in the women's category, and adults should be allowed to compete in the junior categories?

If not, what is different about transwomen that makes them eligible to compete in the women's category without having to justify it?

Can you also explain how it benefits women if transwomen are allowed to compete in the women's category?

Remember that for non professional stuff in general self id is the general route that seems to be popular.

I think maybe many people have an idea in their head of a smallish effeminate gay male who has had lots of hormones and surgery.

A stereotype that I'm sure lots of transwomen don't like but nevertheless I think it's quite prevalent.

But as we have all been told, internal gender ID is distinct from gender presentation. So a male who is a transwoman may have a presentation which is typical for males.

Additionally non binary people may present in various ways.

So the point is that self ID for most non professional stuff in practice means males who present as standard blokes can compete with the women if they wish.

There's a cricketer isn't there who is non binary and plays for both the men's and women's teams at the same club?

I mean it's nonsensical.

I see what your getting at and how would you like to have your participation in sport removed as your comparing a disability against an able bodied person as an advantage

No one, absolutely NO ONE, is removing transwomen's right to compete in sport! I see this hyperbolic statement so often. Transwomen can still compete against the people of their own sex. No one is 'removing' their right to participate in sport at all.

what your implying is that trans women are some kind of alpha male that’s transitioned to compete against women and it’s just fear mongering.

No. We are simply describing transwomen as the sex they were born, because the benefits derived from a male puberty has been shown to no be reduced to a level that allows them to compete 'fairly'.

To use the 'disabled' category as an example is absolutely correct. As is the 'age' category. These categories have been set up to discriminate against those who do not fit the category description to ensure those who fit the description have fairness and safety. is it discriminatory? Yes, it is. It is meant to be.

Sport is to find exceptional people within each category.

Therefore, no adults can compete with the under 16s. No 40 year old can compete with the 60+ year olds. No matter how they identify their age. No matter what their fitness is. And by that I mean, just because they wouldn't win anyway is no reason to allow them to participate.

Just because they might not win, just because they feel they should do it to assist with their mental health as it would make them feel good to participate in that division, if they don't fit the description of the division, they should not expect to compete or participate. It is unfair as they have an advantage.

We are not 'fear mongering', we are stating the current science has been published does not support inclusion. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether they are an 'alpha male' or not.

All the distraction in the world does not show any evidence that males who have had the benefit of a male puberty can and should be included in the women's division. A category set aside to find exceptional females.

It also does not answer the question of why a generation of women need to have their future's negatively affected when the proof should have been sought before inclusion was ever allowed.

I'd say it's resentment of unfair competition, aka cheating.

'do you go around with a bag full of reasons why you should be included in anything you choose to do or have to justify it to anyone of course you don’t.'

Well no because I don't try to get into things that aren't for me. Obviously.

Not stuff for men, religions I don't belong to, things about locations I don't live in, groups for nationalities that I am not.

It would be weird and intrusive.

I have noticed though. And this comment won't be popular with some. That the people who complain about stuff for minority groups etc are usually men, usually white men.

I've heard so many men whining on about women only gym or swim sessions. Do they want to go to the gym or for a swim at that time? No. Do they want men only sessions as well? No.

They just want women not to have them.

It's really weird this bitterness, resentment that seems so common.