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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

British Cycling Consultation on Transgender Policy

303 replies

lorisparkle · 25/03/2021 15:47

Thought this might be of interest

www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20201009-British-Cycling-publishes-Transgender-and-Non-Binary-Participation-policy-0

OP posts:
334bu · 07/04/2021 21:05

I give you that and what your implying is that trans women are some kind of alpha male that’s transitioned to compete against women and it’s just fear mongering

Not alpha just male competing in a category which is not theirs.

Shineonyoucrazy · 07/04/2021 21:13

@EndoplasmicReticulum Pippa York competed as Robert Millar in her competetive cycling career. I don't think she's ever competed in the Women's events.

NotBadConsidering · 07/04/2021 21:31

@OwningAllMyMistakes why don’t you answer one simple question:

What is it that qualifies a male like McKinnon/Ivy or Bridges to complete in women’s sport in the first place, other than feelings?

The focus has been on any obvious advantage they may have when they’re competing, but why do they even get to start? What trait do they possess that matches the women they’ll compete against to mean they’re all in the same category?

EndoplasmicReticulum · 07/04/2021 22:53

Shineon - the point I was getting at was that the aforementioned cyclist competed at a high level in the Tour de France, for example. Not possible for a woman then, or indeed now, as they are not invited.

NiceGerbil · 08/04/2021 00:09

And as a follow up to notbad's post

Why is the starting point for all these orgs so obviously to include at least some transwomen

Why are women and girls being required to prove why males should not be included in single sex stuff, rather than the onus of proof being on others to convince women and girls that's it's a good idea?

334bu · 08/04/2021 07:32

Why are women and girls being required to prove why males should not be included in single sex stuff, rather than the onus of proof being on others to convince women and girls that's it's a good idea?

👆 This!

NotBadConsidering · 08/04/2021 08:01

I have long argued the same point here.

Show us, through high level good quality repeatable research that segregation of sport by sex since the dawn of time has been a fundamentally flawed idea.

Show us, using large cohorts of women and girls across a breadth of sport, that if they can train just as hard as the men and boys and “try harder” that the gap can close and the progression of records in women’s sport will see a dramatic improvement from such revolutionary training techniques never before thought of.

Show us, with high quality research but not actually compromising the safety of women and girls, that there is no risk to women and girls in contact sport.

Show us independent evidence of how males cannot access their sport in the male category because of exclusion. Lack of validation of feelings does not count.

Go and come up with a clear objective argument as to what it is that qualifies males to compete in women and girls’ sport that doesn’t include feelings or validation.

Go and interview all the hundreds of women and girls who have been impacted by just a handful of males in their sports and demonstrate that not a single one was bothered and they did indeed just “get over it”.

Go and do all that, then come back and we might be able to start a discussion.

Until then, just fuck off and leave women and girls’ sport alone.

Quadzilla · 08/04/2021 08:33

👏🏼 Can I cut and paste that to British Cycling?

NotBadConsidering · 08/04/2021 09:19

Of course! As long as you leave the swear word in. 😆😆

Quadzilla · 08/04/2021 09:41

I’m tempted to add more Grin

MiddlesexGirl · 09/04/2021 00:18

Go and interview all the hundreds of women and girls who have been impacted by just a handful of males in their sports and demonstrate that not a single one was bothered and they did indeed just “get over it”.

@OwningAllMyMistakes I certainly won't be getting over it if I or any of my friends lose our places in our team to the transwoman who is now playing locally. Nor will I be getting over it if the same transwoman gets the better of us in competition because they are stronger and faster.

It's the same as allowing me and my team mates to play in the over 70s league. We'd wipe the floor with them. Do you think the O70s would just "get over it".

MaudTheInvincible · 11/04/2021 11:41

Saw this on Twitter this morning:

Barrister (and Legal Feminist) Emma Stuart King provides legal insights on British Cycling's proposed 'Transgender and Non-Binary Participation Policy': legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/04/10/single-sex-cycling/

Biscuitsanddoombar · 11/04/2021 11:48

[quote MaudTheInvincible]Saw this on Twitter this morning:

Barrister (and Legal Feminist) Emma Stuart King provides legal insights on British Cycling's proposed 'Transgender and Non-Binary Participation Policy': legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/04/10/single-sex-cycling/[/quote]
Oh that is fantastic!!!!

MaudTheInvincible · 11/04/2021 12:40

Yes. I must say I wonder why these male dominated sports, such as cycling and rugby, give so much consideration to the men who complain about their non-inclusion in the women's categories, but no weight at all to women who point out the reasons for those categories' existence. The legal position seems so clear, as do the arguments for fairness, safety and inclusion. They've done their comprehensive equality impact assessments, risk assessments and consultations haven't they? I mean, it can't possibly be old fashioned misogyny and gynophobia can it? Truly baffling.

GonadTheGaul · 11/04/2021 12:46

[quote MaudTheInvincible]Saw this on Twitter this morning:

Barrister (and Legal Feminist) Emma Stuart King provides legal insights on British Cycling's proposed 'Transgender and Non-Binary Participation Policy': legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/04/10/single-sex-cycling/[/quote]
Great article!

If anyone hasn't filled in the consultation yet, there's still time.

andyoldlabour · 11/04/2021 14:41

EndoplasmicReticulum

"Shineon - the point I was getting at was that the aforementioned cyclist competed at a high level in the Tour de France, for example. Not possible for a woman then, or indeed now, as they are not invited."

However, there was a "Grande Boucle Feminine Internationale" from 1984-1989 (when Pippa Yorke was winning the Polka Dot jersey in the TdF), so the women at that time had their own event.
Had Pippa Yorke been female, then it would have been impossible for them to compete in the TdF for very obvious reasons - female anatomy, daily stage length, race pace etc.

Truthlikeness · 11/04/2021 16:30

This definition is broader than the protected characteristic of ‘gender reassignment’ in the Equality Act. The Act requires that a person is “proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person’s sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex”. Merely identifying as being of a different gender from one’s birth sex is not sufficient to bring a person under the definition of this protected characteristic.

This was an interesting point hat I don't think I had picked up before. To be covered by 'gender reassignment' is quite a broad church - you just have to say you are intending to undergo sex reassignment, but you do actually have to intend to do something. You can't say you feel female inside without doing anything different.

Cailleach1 · 11/04/2021 17:21

OH big into cycling. Showed OH picture of Phillipa and how this woman is involved in creating the policies which affect women and girls in British Cycling.

OH looked rather confusedly at the picture of the former 1984 Tour de France participant, who wound up in fourth place overall and won the title of 'King of the Mountains. I told him it was the lady in the picture that was involved in the policy of how British women and girls should support a person who profess a gender identity. Much more important of course rather than focussing on or raising obviously less important issues of fairness, dignity and privacy of themselves.

The silly noodle said 'but that is X'. I don't why OH was confused I had to correct him and educate him that the person in the picture was Phillipa York, who is a woman.

Why is the Tour placing in Wiki still dead naming this inspirational woman? A true role model for all women and girls. This woman winner of Le Tour, 'King of the Mountains'' title should be lauded from the rooftops as their true inner and authentic identity. For goodness sakes, they came in just below Greg le Monde and above Sean Kelly. I have watched a lot of cycling and didn't think a woman could compete so well against all those men. I now know that women just don't try hard enough. All those men who came after 4th place in that race. A woman just has to believe and it will happen.

It is great that women like Phillipa are heavily involved in determining the conditions that women and girls involved with cycling get to experience. Great they have that power as no doubt the dignity, fairness, comfort and privacy of women and girls will honestly be at the forefront of any of their input.

It has all given me (and I'm sure many other women and girls) a can do motivation. You too can win King of the Mountains in the Tour de France if you just apply yourself. Why were the other women uniquely involved in a women's event at this time; rather than leaving the men in their wake as Phillipa did? Bet they're sorry now as they can see what Phillipa achieved.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Boucle_Féminine_Internationale

Leafstamp · 22/04/2021 19:41

I’ve just seen this:

www.prideout.co.uk/british-cycling-trans-consultation

Enraging. They completely ignore the law set out in The Equality Act 2010 within the first line of the second paragraph. Angry

If anyone hadn’t already filled in the consultation there’s still time - have a quick read of this thread first.

www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20210325-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-launches-consultation-on-Transgender-participation-policy-0

Sophoclesthefox · 22/04/2021 19:53

Placemarking, I keep forgetting to fill this in, and I must.

MrsJamin · 27/04/2021 15:37

Did everyone read this about how BC responded to a Breeze ride organiser raised concerns? committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/16619/html/ - just shocking that they silence women's concerns about wanting to ride without bloody men!

Binglebong · 27/04/2021 20:10

That made me so sad.

Iootraw1 · 27/04/2021 20:14

Survey Done and I feel better for it. Can’t even believe this is all happening to women’s rights and sporting fairness has been turned on it’s head. This has got to all blow up one day, it’s crazy times.

Leafstamp · 27/04/2021 20:24

Well done loot.

For anyone who's not already seen this, the consultation closes on Friday so get your responses in by then!

PennineSpring · 27/04/2021 20:51

@MrsJamin

Did everyone read this about how BC responded to a Breeze ride organiser raised concerns? committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/16619/html/ - just shocking that they silence women's concerns about wanting to ride without bloody men!
That’s the sort of evidence the committee should be reading: real life implications of shit policy affecting women and girls on the ground.
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