For Women Scotland lose case

[PandorasMailbox]

Absolutely gutted for them

twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1374330580473630721

This so clearly has implications for the rest of the UK. I think we could rely on a spate of allotment-digging to rival the war-effort if the doughty souls of For Women Scot feel that an appeal is winnable.

And if it's not, heaven help us.

Thanks and appreciation to For Women Scot - you are in the vanguard of all this shit. Your courage and determination is really something.

I'm sorry to ask a really dim question - I have tried to google.

What does this MEAN? Does it mean that in law, I am the same as a trans woman? That the trans woman can access my single sex spaces because the trans woman is of the same sex class as me?

Does Scots law believe that trans women are female?

Surely no?

For clarity, I'm a common or garden woman.

Not the fun kind.

Or the important or protected kind.

FWS must be exhausted with all this. But as previous posters have said - Scottish women will fight this. The allotment is still open for digging if anyone is able

vivariumvivariumsvivaria have a look at this.

wingsoverscotland.com/on-a-nod-and-a-wink/

@PandorasMailbox

My Scottish friends are devastated. If this judgement doesn't show how little women matter, then I don't know what will.

How is being complicit in a lie helping anyone @SweetPetrichor? All it does is feed animosity and division. Well fucking done!

I'm so sorry to hear this and so sorry for the women of Scotland who will suffer from a reduction in their representation.

It is so disappointing that the Judge couldn't step back and look at the common sense of the argument before she started down the legal arguments.

I haven't had a chance to read the full judgement and so am not aware of the legal argument to support this but whatever knots she has tied herself in, surely she can't morally move away from the original common sense position? (obviously she has, but how??)

Nonny

Faaaaaaaarking hell.

You know that Mitchell and Webb thing, "hang on, are WE the baddies"? I keep asking myself if I am wrong, if I am in fact a bigot, old fashioned of thought and being silly, demanding and spoiled.

And then I read about the women being beaten and worse in lockdown by men, and that they can't have a women's only refuge and I hear my elected representatives say "inclusion matters" and ignoring the dead women piling up, and up, and up. It seems that they don't matter.

Women in Afghanistan could go to school in 1996, you know.

HOW could that JR fail? How? Anyone with eyes, or ears or who is as aware as a newborn infant can tell that people of different sexes are not the same.

No, I am not the baddie here.

Faaaaaaaarking hell.

It beggars belief that we are having to deal with this shite in the 21st century.

Lots of material for books and documentaries in the years to come.

I know logic is no strong point anywhere in this entire situation, but surely if there is no means by which TW can be differentiated from women, and no purpose in law to ever separate the two, then not only are TWW, but W are TW. We're all trans now.

In which case why is the word trans still relevant and needing protection in law? We can't identify that group as different from any other?

This is from Willie Rennie today, leader of the Scottish Libdems. He's talking about the Salmond/Sturgeon issue, but I think there are several things that are relevant (my emphasis):

'Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie says the women who complained have been "failed".

He adds: "When they stepped up we were not there for them."

Mr Rennie adds the Conservatives were "only interested in removing Nicola Sturgeon from office rather than the facts of this terrible series of events".

He continues: "They have undermined the integrity of the independent investigator."

Mr Rennie also says that Scottish politics today "does not look pretty".

"Talk of lynching, assassination, leaking the private evidence of complaints, tabling motions of no confidence before even all the evidence had been heard, attacking a committee because it does not agree with first minister, lauding the performance of Nicola Sturgeon because she talked to a committee for over eight hours - as if the show is more important than the facts - boasting about recruiting new members on the back of this tragedy.

"No-one wins from this ugly episode."

No-one wins, but women, yet again, are the ones who get the brunt of it.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-56480968

Yes, exactly that Vivarium. If you are in Scotland there is no legal difference between you and a TW.

The judgment only refers to the Public Boards Bill at the moment, but there is absolutely no doubt that the new definition will be used in other legislation. In fact I think that was probably the intention - introduce it into a minor piece of 'equalities' legislation that no-one will take much notice of, and then use it as a precedent.

Welp. You guys wasted another 100k.

Imagine how much better the world would be if you put that money into charities instead of these failed legal crowdfunders.

@MichelleofzeResistance

I know logic is no strong point anywhere in this entire situation, but surely if there is no means by which TW can be differentiated from women, and no purpose in law to ever separate the two, then not only are TWW, but W are TW. We're all trans now.

In which case why is the word trans still relevant and needing protection in law? We can't identify that group as different from any other?

Quite, Michelle.

If TWAW and it's not a medical condition, and there's no need to have dysphoria or make any effort to 'transition', then - what the fuck are we all discussing?! The word is obsolete! Everything is unisex! We're all non binary, now.

Have they redefined ‘man’ then too?

As we've said from the start. If you can't see the differences and name them you can't do anything about them.

So if there's no difference, we're just all women. Fine. Whatever. We won't be needing the day of rememberance or the toolkits and the groups and banners and rainbow badges, there cannot be a specialist protected characteristic if there's no difference between TW and bog standard women. Women's provision is all that will be needed, because there is no difference between the two groups according to this judgement.

@toffeebutterpopcorn

Have they redefined ‘man’ then too?

Nah, they wouldn't dare.

[quote ArabellaScott]This is from Willie Rennie today, leader of the Scottish Libdems. He's talking about the Salmond/Sturgeon issue, but I think there are several things that are relevant (my emphasis):

'Scottish Liberal Democrat leader Willie Rennie says the women who complained have been "failed".

He adds: "When they stepped up we were not there for them."

Mr Rennie adds the Conservatives were "only interested in removing Nicola Sturgeon from office rather than the facts of this terrible series of events".

He continues: "They have undermined the integrity of the independent investigator."

Mr Rennie also says that Scottish politics today "does not look pretty".

"Talk of lynching, assassination, leaking the private evidence of complaints, tabling motions of no confidence before even all the evidence had been heard, attacking a committee because it does not agree with first minister, lauding the performance of Nicola Sturgeon because she talked to a committee for over eight hours - as if the show is more important than the facts - boasting about recruiting new members on the back of this tragedy.

"No-one wins from this ugly episode."

No-one wins, but women, yet again, are the ones who get the brunt of it.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-56480968[/quote]
He may say thay but he also voted for the Hate Crime Bill so now they won't even be able to step up.

He also voted against women being allowed to ask for a female examiner after rape.

Just done some digging. I would hate for this not to be appealed for lack of funds.

What a shocking mess Scotland is getting in.

@yeahbutnaw

Welp. You guys wasted another 100k.

Imagine how much better the world would be if you put that money into charities instead of these failed legal crowdfunders.

Why don't organisations like Stonewall use their rather abundant funds to open Trans only shelters rather than taking over those of women?

The money hasn't been wasted. It's shown that the erasure of women in life and in law is a real possibility. If you think that women will disappear now and give up their hard won rights, you really have zero clue what we're capable of.

Enjoy your pyrrhic victory.

In fact I think that was probably the intention - introduce it into a minor piece of 'equalities' legislation that no-one will take much notice of, and then use it as a precedent.

This is correct. The Denton's handbook instructs gender activists on how to best carry out these changes. It says gender identity changes should quietly piggyback on other popular reforms that the public wouldn't oppose. It's the only way any of this stuff gets enacted. In Ireland it was same-sex marriage.

Most people don't really have a problem with legislation to promote equal representation of women on public boards. And many wouldn't pay close attention to the Bill as it sounds very boring and dry. People will support it (or at the very least not oppose it) without realising the word woman now includes any male.

This is from FWS crowdfunding page:

Originally, the Scottish Government stated that its 50% objective would be for those who are "female or who identify as female", but after a consultation in 2017 changed this to "women". According to the Policy Memorandum, "this step was taken to ensure that the Bill reflects the protected characteristic of sex in the Equality Act 2010".

However, during Stage 2 of the legislative process, following representations from Scottish Trans Alliance, the definition of "woman" in the Bill was again altered to include people who have not changed their legal sex to 'female' using a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), and exclude some people who remain female in law (those transitioning to live as men, but who do not have a GRC).

I think they will win on appeal, every day more people wake up to the reality of what is happening & the erosion of women’s rights

@yeahbutnaw

Welp. You guys wasted another 100k.

Imagine how much better the world would be if you put that money into charities instead of these failed legal crowdfunders.

I’d say the success rate is very good, actually. The ONS changed its guidance just last week, or did you forget already?

Don’t worry, there are loads of women who can easily afford to keep giving to causes to make sure our rights and words aren’t whipped out from under us. You don’t have to thank us

@NonnyMouse1337

In fact I think that was probably the intention - introduce it into a minor piece of 'equalities' legislation that no-one will take much notice of, and then use it as a precedent.

This is correct. The Denton's handbook instructs gender activists on how to best carry out these changes. It says gender identity changes should quietly piggyback on other popular reforms that the public wouldn't oppose. It's the only way any of this stuff gets enacted. In Ireland it was same-sex marriage.

Most people don't really have a problem with legislation to promote equal representation of women on public boards. And many wouldn't pay close attention to the Bill as it sounds very boring and dry. People will support it (or at the very least not oppose it) without realising the word woman now includes any male.

This is from FWS crowdfunding page:

Originally, the Scottish Government stated that its 50% objective would be for those who are "female or who identify as female", but after a consultation in 2017 changed this to "women". According to the Policy Memorandum, "this step was taken to ensure that the Bill reflects the protected characteristic of sex in the Equality Act 2010".

However, during Stage 2 of the legislative process, following representations from Scottish Trans Alliance, the definition of "woman" in the Bill was again altered to include people who have not changed their legal sex to 'female' using a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC), and exclude some people who remain female in law (those transitioning to live as men, but who do not have a GRC).

It's been used in other legislation since the GRPB bill. The claim this is limited to this bill only, and won't be extended was a lie when the hearing took place. I hope FWS are able to use that information in any appeal.