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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we the Baddies? Yes (well some!) according to the Daily Express: LGBT community is at war with itself, transphobia in the LGBT world has to STOP

140 replies

MishyJDI · 23/03/2021 12:09

I have to agree with a lot of this: Too much time worrying about a minority in echo chambers like this, and not enough fighting the real issues of feminism - patriarchy remains the number one enemy!

Mostly the younger generation get it, which is why there is such a disconnect and dismay expressed often on here.

(I'm sure this will make the Bunbury tales of scones and jam recipes - but seriously, trans ideology obsession on here is ludicrous.) Let's focus on real changes for women and girls that improve all our lives.

From the Daily Express

www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1413110/transphobic-trans-what-is-transgender-JK-Rowling-LGBT-community-TERF/amp?

The LGBT community is at war with itself, transphobia in the LGBT world has to STOP - COMMENT

RESIGNATIONS from three Government LGBT advisers over Equalities Minister Liz Truss and Boris Johnson's Government failure on LGBT rights (including dragging its feet to grant trans people rights in the UK) comes as no surprise.

By Maryann Wright

Ending the trans culture war once and for all, and outlawing so-called conversion therapy which treats sexuality and gender nonconformity as a choice or mental health problem, is a stagnant, three-year-old promise. Policy delay from the Conservative government is frustrating and devastating for our LGBT community, but the continual warfare amongst our own is a deeply insidious undercurrent that needs rooting out too. I’m talking about transphobia within the LGBT community.

The small group of lesbians who believe that transwomen aren’t real women because of an essentialist and reductionist belief that a woman’s identity is rooted in biology.

The distorted fear that transwomen will invade women’s spaces to victimise them, or even more outrageous, coerce lesbians to sleep with them, implying that lesbians must accept transwomen as sexual partners so as not to be labelled as trans-exclusionary, and that sex isn’t based on consent.

Or the assumption that men will misleadingly dress up as women and pose threats of sexual violence in women’s toilets because of Britain's 2010 Equality Act that protects trans people from discrimination in accessing single-sex spaces.

A small group of lesbian feminists called “Get the L Out” even go so far to claim that lesbian-only spaces are disappearing because of transwomen, “leading to difficulties in meeting like-minded women.”

As someone who runs women-only spaces inclusive of trans and cis-gendered women and genderqueer, non-binary people, for the very purpose of offering alternatives to male-dominated LGBT bars and clubs, I call BS.

I agree that LGBT spaces and activism is still male-dominated, and that more needs to be done to promote equality within the LGBT community, but the idea that transgender inclusivity harms women, and lesbians in particular, is just ludicrous.

Persecuting an even smaller minority within an already marginalised community is counter intuitive and harmful, whether you’re taking an LGBT or feminist perspective.

Firstly, let’s bust an insidious myth. There is no evidence that trans-inclusive laws lead to a rise in assaults, stalking or harassment in single-sex spaces.

The loud, transphobic noise coming from trans exclusionary radical feminists, or TERFs, of late is fear mongering.

Trans activism isn’t eroding women and girls' rights to single-sex spaces by "offering cover to predators," nor are trans-inclusionary policies "playing fast and loose with women's and girls' safety".

Do you know whose safety we are playing fast and loose with in this debate, though? Trans people.

Almost 50 percent of transgender people have experienced a hate crime because of their gender identity in the last 12 months, and 67 percent of trans people surveyed by the Government Equalities Office said they’d avoided being open about their gender identity for fear of a negative reaction.

Transphobic arguments weaponise transpeople as if they are transgressors, harking back to the old and demeaning cinematic trope of cross-dressing serial killers, and yet the reality is that trans people are the ones being transgressed.

We need to be protecting trans people, not the other way around. Any suggestion otherwise is incongruent to the facts.

It isn’t too small a point to also remember that transgender people make up 13 percent of the LGBT community, so any claims that transwomen are invading lesbian spaces is an exaggeration at best.

All of this fear mongering strikes me as history repeating itself.
Thirty years ago we were having this discussion about gay people, living under the revolting Section 28 of Margaret Thatcher’s government, which prohibited the promotion of homosexuality. Back then, living my cis lesbian life in the UK would have been questioned and persecuted.

Now, we are lucky to have made real progress in battling homophobia, and we need to ensure that progress passes down to our trans friends.

Lesbian rights are not under attack by the trans movement.
Transphobia has no place in feminism and no place in the LGBT community.

It is not a competition about who is having the most horrible time. There’s not a finite amount of equality.

Yes, the dominance of the patriarchy is alive and well, and misogyny is exhausting.

But it is not mutually exclusive to recognise that society as a whole is patriarchal and women are more likely to be killed by a partner, earn less, and find it difficult to go back to work after having a baby, and that people get to decide their gender identity.

Let’s also not confuse cismen with transwomen. The lived experience is entirely different, whether or not you respect their gender identity.
So many people have a complete disconnect with the lived experience of a trans person, and they don’t take time to consider this before casting judgment.

We need to stop perpetuating hypothetical fears not based in reality. The distortion and the hyperbole is destructive. The conversation has to mature.

How about we move the discussion to supporting trans people. Let’s ensure the Gender Recognition Act and Equality Act is fit for purpose. Let’s ban conversion therapy.

"Let’s instil a supportive framework within the LGBT community that encourages a person’s right to choose to express their gender identity."

The in-fighting needs to stop, let’s work with trans people to protect their right to a life of self-definition, safety and peace.

Maryann Wright is the Founder of Sappho Events, producing safe, sober and social events for LGBT women and non-binary people. www.sapphoevents.co.uk

OP posts:
Datun · 23/03/2021 18:09

@NiceGerbil

I think there was a suggestion that women and girls who didn't know was a cervix was, were thick or something.

Eye opening

This is a prime example of how you are not allowed to differentiate between the sexes, but everyone does, because otherwise the ideology doesn't work.

How do humans know they have a cervix?

The only possible way is to make a category of humans who need to find out.

Even if you google it - part of the vaginal canal, leading to the uterus? Which humans are supposed to google that? And when they read the word woman or girl, which humans are supposed to understand to which cohort that is applicable?

They are telling you that you must, absolutely, one hundred percent, understand which kind of humans this applies to, in order to determine who has that specific anatomy.

Whilst simultaneously telling you that the humans to which it applies (women) also have an entirely different anatomy involving penises.

NiceGerbil · 23/03/2021 18:12

'But base your entire personality on trans people?'

The curse of the the 2D women strikes again! A male favourite.

Women and girls should fall into nest types/ caricatures.

Their type is all they are. Nothing more, nothing less.

When they say they're more complicated than that they're being silly.

Examples
Yummy mummy
MILF
Lady who lunches
Bimbo
Jail bait
Fish wife
Old dear
And of course
T**F
Gash

It's up to others to apply the label. The women/ girl has no choice.

They are nothing more and nothing less.

Yummy mummies think only of how fabulous their looks and lives are and are very smug.
Bimbos are attractive but stupid and only think about hair makeup and clothes. They are easily flattered into sex.
Women in this thread discussing this topic have literally zero other interests, thoughts.

Same old same old

NiceGerbil · 23/03/2021 18:13

Neat not nest!

gardenbird48 · 23/03/2021 18:17

@DialSquare

Maybe they've gone round the world with Lisa to help her find her baby.
Love it.

Random tenuous link - my old physics teacher used to teach Lisa Stansfield (presumably not the one on here).

BettyFilous · 23/03/2021 18:19

Firstly, let’s bust an insidious myth. There is no evidence that trans-inclusive laws lead to a rise in assaults, stalking or harassment in single-sex spaces.

Karen White Katie Dolatowski

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 23/03/2021 18:22

So an OP who says there are too many trans related threads on mumsnet and starts their own thread

And a poster telling people off for posting on a trans related thread that they themselves are posting on

Right ok...think I’m getting the hang of this

loveyouradvice · 23/03/2021 18:34

Almost 50 percent of transgender people have experienced a hate crime because of their gender identity in the last 12 months

What constitutes a hate crime in this statistic? Just interested to drill down into the stats. Is transphobic hate crime differentiated in this assessment from eg misogynistic hate crime experienced by all women?

TWO REALLY IMPORTANT POINTS HERE....

  1. Being able to report hate crimes means they are counted..... Trans people are encouraged to report these as often as possible, and this can I understand be as simple as saying someone misgendered them
  1. Misogyny is the only protected characteristic that is not eligible to be a hate crime- so although everywhere we look this is happening, IT IS NOT BEING COUNTED. One of the key reasons we need this so people can start to understand the extent of this
StanfordPines · 23/03/2021 18:37

@loveyouradvice

Almost 50 percent of transgender people have experienced a hate crime because of their gender identity in the last 12 months

What constitutes a hate crime in this statistic? Just interested to drill down into the stats. Is transphobic hate crime differentiated in this assessment from eg misogynistic hate crime experienced by all women?

TWO REALLY IMPORTANT POINTS HERE....

  1. Being able to report hate crimes means they are counted..... Trans people are encouraged to report these as often as possible, and this can I understand be as simple as saying someone misgendered them
  1. Misogyny is the only protected characteristic that is not eligible to be a hate crime- so although everywhere we look this is happening, IT IS NOT BEING COUNTED. One of the key reasons we need this so people can start to understand the extent of this
Quite. While I don’t doubt for a moment that 50% of trans people have suffered hate crime if women reported all the misogynistic comments assaults they suffered it would be well over 50% but because it’s so damn common no one even mentions it.
OneEpisode · 23/03/2021 18:42

My favourite comment under the article was “my head hurts after trying to hack through that jungle of words”.
Circulation of the Daily Express is a quarter of a million.
I think “no debate” is over now? And every single comment I read was peaking in interest?

Sophoclesthefox · 23/03/2021 18:47

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

So an OP who says there are too many trans related threads on mumsnet and starts their own thread

And a poster telling people off for posting on a trans related thread that they themselves are posting on

Right ok...think I’m getting the hang of this

Nailed it, rufus. Now that (hopefully), we’re coming out of lockdown and it’s going to get harder for people to go to crowded places and tut at all the people not doing lockdown properly by going to crowded places, people are going to need new avenues for hypocritical scolding!
OneEpisode · 23/03/2021 18:50

The other quote was that in the Government Equalities Office survey 67% of trans respondents “said they’d avoided being open about their gender identity for a fear of a negative reaction”.
I do want to know what does that mean exactly? Living in an identity they hate even to family, which I would find very concerning, or one occasion where the trans person doesn’t announce their pronouns in the supermarket and instead let other humans treat them like every other human?

Tal45 · 23/03/2021 18:50

I'm confused. What is a woman's identity rooted in if it's not biology????

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 23/03/2021 18:59

Can we now stop with the threads based on a Mitchell and Webb comedy sketch?

NiceGerbil · 23/03/2021 19:11

Tal45

The language is all wrong really.
Identify as indicates some kind of choice and also that it's something you feel reflects part of who you are.

Being a woman is just a fact.
Identifying as feminine (girly girl) would be an identity, as an example.

What's happened is that the words woman and girl have been refined by some people to be an identity. An identity that anyone can choose.

So where someone might have said, I'm a bit of a girly girl but not all the time. That usage turns to woman/ girl. I'm usually a woman but not all the time. I'm non binary. Or, I have girl mode and boy mode.

Of course women globally were not consulted on this change in a fundamental part of our language. Additionally it's being claimed that woman/ girl always meant identity. That the concepts are invented by colonialists to oppress. That they always referred to a social role only.

The problem is.

Even people who use the new definitions do not use them consistently.
For 99.999 % of the population the words mean what they always meant (child or adult female human).

This is deliberate so things can say women's prison for example and most people will have no idea that includes potentially anyone who identities as such.

It's not meant to be too widely understood as it would raise massive questions from ordinary people.

Also female is by identity as well, we are now told.

And we get no replacement terms that are not extraordinarily dehumanising and obscure the links between different things. Because there are now a load of different groups based on body parts. Not one group (used to be women, girls, female).

Deliriumoftheendless · 23/03/2021 19:38

@TheRabbitOfCaerbannog

Can we now stop with the threads based on a Mitchell and Webb comedy sketch?
No, let’s have multiple threads on confusing petrol and cheese instead, please.
RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 23/03/2021 19:41

While I don’t doubt for a moment that 50% of trans people have suffered hate crime if women reported all the misogynistic comments assaults they suffered it would be well over 50% but because it’s so damn common no one even mentions it

Its a bit different but a gay young man i know was talking about being groped and assaulted in gay bars and he said ‘if it happened to a woman they would be outrage’ i was 😳

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 23/03/2021 19:42

Nailed it, rufus. Now that (hopefully), we’re coming out of lockdown and it’s going to get harder for people to go to crowded places and tut at all the people not doing lockdown properly by going to crowded places, people are going to need new avenues for hypocritical scolding!

Of course...i knew that it reminded me of something!

Zinco · 23/03/2021 19:43

Does anyone else find it offensive to put transwoman in the same sentence as black woman, disabled woman, asian woman, muslim women

So "black woman" specifies the race of the woman. And "muslim women" specifies religious belief system.

What does "transwoman" specify? It means that they are the opposite of a woman, but identify as such, which is of course nothing like the other examples.

So yes, clever trick, or desperate attempt at linguistic trickery.

Zinco · 23/03/2021 19:46

??? at this response! Promoting homosexuality?!

"Promoting" here doesn't mean encouraging more people to be homosexuals, which presumably wouldn't work. It means taking one side in the political debate.

NiceGerbil · 23/03/2021 19:51

I remember section 28. To choose to use the words in the law is a peculiar choice I think.

'Enacted on 24 May 1988, the amendment stated that a local authority "shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality" or "promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship".'

TheFnozwhowasmirage · 23/03/2021 19:53

DialSquare you made me squirt tea down my nose!Grin
Is it me,or does the increased number of posters coming into this board and deliberately being obtuse,signify that us uppity women are getting some people's backs up?
Meanwhile,I'm still here because a poster yesterday claimed that sheep have a gender identity,but never actually explained how. I'd like to know because I'm due in the lambing shed in 10 minutes and don't want to misgender any of my girls.

littlbrowndog · 23/03/2021 19:55

@TheRabbitOfCaerbannog

Can we now stop with the threads based on a Mitchell and Webb comedy sketch?
Awesome
SapphosRock · 23/03/2021 19:57

@persistentwoman

Love this bit: The small group of lesbians who believe that transwomen aren’t real women because of an essentialist and reductionist belief that a woman’s identity is rooted in biology . Grin Grin

Except is tragic that someone can believe / write that .

I must admit I thought that bit was satire! Grin

Lesbians wanting relationships with biological women? Whatever next!

PaleBlueMoonlight · 23/03/2021 20:05

And we get no replacement terms that are not extraordinarily dehumanising and obscure the links between different things. Because there are now a load of different groups based on body parts. Not one group (used to be women, girls, female).

Thinking about this and realise that to put me and my mum into the same group of human we would have to be ‘vagina havers’ or ‘vulva owners’ or maybe ‘clitoris havers’ Not many choices really.

EightiesRobot · 23/03/2021 20:10

As someone who runs women-only spaces inclusive of trans and cis-gendered women and genderqueer, non-binary people, for the very purpose of offering alternatives to male-dominated LGBT bars and clubs, I call BS.

ConfusedWhat is this article on about? So she doesn't run women-only spaces? She runs mixed-sex spaces and yet says there is no problem. She says lesbians should accept transwomen as women and at the same time suggests lesbians are wrong for being concerned they are being coerced into accepting transwomen as sexual partners? It is just so confused.