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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we the Baddies? Yes (well some!) according to the Daily Express: LGBT community is at war with itself, transphobia in the LGBT world has to STOP

140 replies

MishyJDI · 23/03/2021 12:09

I have to agree with a lot of this: Too much time worrying about a minority in echo chambers like this, and not enough fighting the real issues of feminism - patriarchy remains the number one enemy!

Mostly the younger generation get it, which is why there is such a disconnect and dismay expressed often on here.

(I'm sure this will make the Bunbury tales of scones and jam recipes - but seriously, trans ideology obsession on here is ludicrous.) Let's focus on real changes for women and girls that improve all our lives.

From the Daily Express

www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1413110/transphobic-trans-what-is-transgender-JK-Rowling-LGBT-community-TERF/amp?

The LGBT community is at war with itself, transphobia in the LGBT world has to STOP - COMMENT

RESIGNATIONS from three Government LGBT advisers over Equalities Minister Liz Truss and Boris Johnson's Government failure on LGBT rights (including dragging its feet to grant trans people rights in the UK) comes as no surprise.

By Maryann Wright

Ending the trans culture war once and for all, and outlawing so-called conversion therapy which treats sexuality and gender nonconformity as a choice or mental health problem, is a stagnant, three-year-old promise. Policy delay from the Conservative government is frustrating and devastating for our LGBT community, but the continual warfare amongst our own is a deeply insidious undercurrent that needs rooting out too. I’m talking about transphobia within the LGBT community.

The small group of lesbians who believe that transwomen aren’t real women because of an essentialist and reductionist belief that a woman’s identity is rooted in biology.

The distorted fear that transwomen will invade women’s spaces to victimise them, or even more outrageous, coerce lesbians to sleep with them, implying that lesbians must accept transwomen as sexual partners so as not to be labelled as trans-exclusionary, and that sex isn’t based on consent.

Or the assumption that men will misleadingly dress up as women and pose threats of sexual violence in women’s toilets because of Britain's 2010 Equality Act that protects trans people from discrimination in accessing single-sex spaces.

A small group of lesbian feminists called “Get the L Out” even go so far to claim that lesbian-only spaces are disappearing because of transwomen, “leading to difficulties in meeting like-minded women.”

As someone who runs women-only spaces inclusive of trans and cis-gendered women and genderqueer, non-binary people, for the very purpose of offering alternatives to male-dominated LGBT bars and clubs, I call BS.

I agree that LGBT spaces and activism is still male-dominated, and that more needs to be done to promote equality within the LGBT community, but the idea that transgender inclusivity harms women, and lesbians in particular, is just ludicrous.

Persecuting an even smaller minority within an already marginalised community is counter intuitive and harmful, whether you’re taking an LGBT or feminist perspective.

Firstly, let’s bust an insidious myth. There is no evidence that trans-inclusive laws lead to a rise in assaults, stalking or harassment in single-sex spaces.

The loud, transphobic noise coming from trans exclusionary radical feminists, or TERFs, of late is fear mongering.

Trans activism isn’t eroding women and girls' rights to single-sex spaces by "offering cover to predators," nor are trans-inclusionary policies "playing fast and loose with women's and girls' safety".

Do you know whose safety we are playing fast and loose with in this debate, though? Trans people.

Almost 50 percent of transgender people have experienced a hate crime because of their gender identity in the last 12 months, and 67 percent of trans people surveyed by the Government Equalities Office said they’d avoided being open about their gender identity for fear of a negative reaction.

Transphobic arguments weaponise transpeople as if they are transgressors, harking back to the old and demeaning cinematic trope of cross-dressing serial killers, and yet the reality is that trans people are the ones being transgressed.

We need to be protecting trans people, not the other way around. Any suggestion otherwise is incongruent to the facts.

It isn’t too small a point to also remember that transgender people make up 13 percent of the LGBT community, so any claims that transwomen are invading lesbian spaces is an exaggeration at best.

All of this fear mongering strikes me as history repeating itself.
Thirty years ago we were having this discussion about gay people, living under the revolting Section 28 of Margaret Thatcher’s government, which prohibited the promotion of homosexuality. Back then, living my cis lesbian life in the UK would have been questioned and persecuted.

Now, we are lucky to have made real progress in battling homophobia, and we need to ensure that progress passes down to our trans friends.

Lesbian rights are not under attack by the trans movement.
Transphobia has no place in feminism and no place in the LGBT community.

It is not a competition about who is having the most horrible time. There’s not a finite amount of equality.

Yes, the dominance of the patriarchy is alive and well, and misogyny is exhausting.

But it is not mutually exclusive to recognise that society as a whole is patriarchal and women are more likely to be killed by a partner, earn less, and find it difficult to go back to work after having a baby, and that people get to decide their gender identity.

Let’s also not confuse cismen with transwomen. The lived experience is entirely different, whether or not you respect their gender identity.
So many people have a complete disconnect with the lived experience of a trans person, and they don’t take time to consider this before casting judgment.

We need to stop perpetuating hypothetical fears not based in reality. The distortion and the hyperbole is destructive. The conversation has to mature.

How about we move the discussion to supporting trans people. Let’s ensure the Gender Recognition Act and Equality Act is fit for purpose. Let’s ban conversion therapy.

"Let’s instil a supportive framework within the LGBT community that encourages a person’s right to choose to express their gender identity."

The in-fighting needs to stop, let’s work with trans people to protect their right to a life of self-definition, safety and peace.

Maryann Wright is the Founder of Sappho Events, producing safe, sober and social events for LGBT women and non-binary people. www.sapphoevents.co.uk

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/03/2021 14:32

Genderist ideology is the biggest threat to the sex based rights of women and girls that I've seen in my 50+ years on this planet.

I don't give a tiny shiny what some "young people" think if what they think is based on having been indoctrinated by science and material reality denying arsewash pushed by lobbyists, misogynists and others with questionable agendas.

I'll take a mad wild guess that most of them will wake up to this nonsense as they experience a bit more of the world and think a bit further than "be kind".

Meanwhile the grown ups will treat the daily tedium of being cajoled into accepting their own erasure with the contempt it deserves.

Great post, agree with all of it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/03/2021 14:34

How about we move the discussion to supporting trans people.

Not when there are relevant issues for women, we won't solely focus on trans issues and ignore women's rights questions then, thanks all the same!

NiceGerbil · 23/03/2021 14:39

@Zinco

Thirty years ago we were having this discussion about gay people, living under the revolting Section 28 of Margaret Thatcher’s government, which prohibited the promotion of homosexuality.

No it didn't. Not in general. You could promote homosexuality as much as you wanted in the world of adult politics.

It did limit local education/ teachers from giving propaganda to kids, but there are all sorts of things that teachers shouldn't be allowed to promote in the classroom.

??? at this response!

Promoting homosexuality?!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 23/03/2021 14:47

Good grief. Do we have to keep on going all the way back to the beginning again?

Is it because some quite important people have recently shouted back TWAM?

Or Mother has legal meaning?

Or single sex spaces are absolutely legal?

Is that why we are being treated to a time travelling, press the reset button, take it all back to square one thread?

Pshaw!

terryleather · 23/03/2021 14:49

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Good grief. Do we have to keep on going all the way back to the beginning again?

Is it because some quite important people have recently shouted back TWAM?

Or Mother has legal meaning?

Or single sex spaces are absolutely legal?

Is that why we are being treated to a time travelling, press the reset button, take it all back to square one thread?

Pshaw!

I know Curious, it's fecking tiresome innit.
Datun · 23/03/2021 14:49

No-one in the comments is buying it.

From the fed up and disinterested

"Do we really 'need' LGBTQR etc 'advisers' anyway and if so, for what purpose ?
The whole ridiculous trandgender storm in a thimble is about a mere handful of individuals who feel misplaced, despite their obvious gender. But why should that be a mainstream issue or of any real interest to the ordinary person ?"

To the more analytical

"The common law only deals with objective reality (facts) majority rule and not subjective opinion (theories) and minority rule.
To do otherwise turns legal texts into oxymorons and democracies into dictatorships.
Demanding the whole agrees with a minority groups subjective opinion is not how society works. No matter how much you stamp your feet and demand that it does. All you prove is your tyrranny."

Followed by the rather succinct

"This is parody, right?"

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 23/03/2021 14:52

How about we move the discussion to supporting trans people.

On the feminism board? How about no. How about focusing on women and our lived experience.

Kit19 · 23/03/2021 14:53

I do wonder how it would go down if we went onto a board for trans people and suggested we discussed how to support women instead...

RedDogsBeg · 23/03/2021 14:55

Datun, Funny how we keep being told that no-one out there in the big wide world agrees with us here on FWR, we are in a echo chamber, wrong side of history, and yet time and time again when the public at large are asked they align with and agree with the points we make and objections we have. I'd suggest that the echo chamber is not FWR.

LastRoloIsMine · 23/03/2021 14:58

2nd verse same as the first.....

Toseland · 23/03/2021 15:03

The answer is still and will always be NO - you can’t have women’s rights too.
There isn’t an obsession with trans ideology here; there is an obsession with women’s rights; it just so happens trans ideology keeps butting in.
This article is a load of old regurgitated rubbish, hidden low down in the Comment section of the newspaper. None of the comments beneath that article from Joe public agree with it either 😂 (which is something I’ve noticed more frequently lately.)

stumbledin · 23/03/2021 15:03

The reason the conversion therapy bit has been delayed as the usual suspects have included in it a section that would effectively not allow support for detransitioners.

It is really important to remember that yet again (sigh) women have had to rely on the Tories to spot this underhann attempt.

So only skim read the article but usual plucking at the heartstrings about gay men and lesbians but not even bothering to think about the impact of the rainbow pathway the medical profession is pushing young people down.

So yes to stopping conversion therapy re same sex attraction, but NO to the need for and possibility of detransitioning.

Datun · 23/03/2021 15:03

@RedDogsBeg

Datun, Funny how we keep being told that no-one out there in the big wide world agrees with us here on FWR, we are in a echo chamber, wrong side of history, and yet time and time again when the public at large are asked they align with and agree with the points we make and objections we have. I'd suggest that the echo chamber is not FWR.
Indeed. And whilst it's not necessarily how I would express it, the most liked comment was

"Mad as a sack of ferrets."

Sophoclesthefox · 23/03/2021 15:11

How does inclusive language around medicine enable discrimination against women?

Here’s a few examples off the top of my head.

If we target outreach for smear tests to “people with a cervix”, we’re disadvantaging the 44% of women who don’t know what a cervix is (source: Jo’s Trust www.jostrust.org.uk/node/666780). This will include some of the most vulnerable women who may already struggle to,access healthcare - women with English as a second language, or who don’t speak English, women with learning disabilities, women from culturally conservative backgrounds. More women will miss smears, so more women will get cervical cancer and die.

If we do as the Endometriosis society recently did and state that “1 in 10 people will suffer with endometriosis”, then we’ve hidden the true data by halving it- it’s 10% of women, which isn’t the same thing at all. We’ve sex re-aggregated the data at the very point that we’ve just started to become aware of the dangers of not having sex disaggregated data ( see I visible Women by Caroline Criado Perez).

I could go on, if you’re interested?

Helleofabore · 23/03/2021 15:13

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

How about we move the discussion to supporting trans people.

On the feminism board? How about no. How about focusing on women and our lived experience.

I'll be in that!
AlwaysTawnyOwl · 23/03/2021 15:17

I have to agree with a lot of this: Too much time worrying about a minority in echo chambers like this, and not enough fighting the real issues of feminism - patriarchy remains the number one enemy!

Mostly the younger generation get it, which is why there is such a disconnect and dismay expressed often on here

But what is at stake is a principle with huge ramifications. The very definition of what a woman is. Once lost, the important rights that women have won based on their biology are open to any man that wants them - that's what self-id is. This isn't a minority issue.

The phrase TWAW epitomises what is at stake. In English law a woman is defined in the Equality Act as an 'adult human female'. Based on biology. TWAW says that an adult human male IS a woman. Not - living as though they were a woman, but actually a woman. And of course a GRC which Stonewall would like given out to anyone who wants one, also gives a new birth certificate saying that the holder has changed sex, a biological impossibility.

Womens sports, single sex spaces and services all exist for a reason which hasn't gone away. Self-id by allowing anyone to be a woman on the basis of a self declaration gives basic rights away to anyone who wants them. That's why it's not a minority concern.

NiceGerbil · 23/03/2021 15:22

Sophocles on a cervical smear thread one of the responses to that was something about education needs fixing then so go away and sort that out.

That's very inclusive and caring isn't it :/

NiceGerbil · 23/03/2021 15:23

I think there was a suggestion that women and girls who didn't know was a cervix was, were thick or something.

Eye opening

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 23/03/2021 15:23

Nobody is saying that tw and cw have the same lived experiences either! Just as gay women’s experiences differ from straight women, and disabled women’s experiences differ from able bodied women, etc etc LisaStansfield

TW are biological males. The lived experience you need to compare is with a man who presents as traditionally male, and a man who does not.

Sophoclesthefox · 23/03/2021 15:26

@RedDogsBeg

Datun, Funny how we keep being told that no-one out there in the big wide world agrees with us here on FWR, we are in a echo chamber, wrong side of history, and yet time and time again when the public at large are asked they align with and agree with the points we make and objections we have. I'd suggest that the echo chamber is not FWR.
I’m sure there’s a reasonable explanation for how it can be that we’re all so out of touch with what every normal person thinks, yet whenever every normal person is asked to opine, their post could have been written by your average user here...

Asmall group of lesbian feminists called “Get the L Out” even go so far to claim that lesbian-only spaces are disappearing because of transwomen, “leading to difficulties in meeting like-minded women.”

As someone who runs women-only spaces inclusive of trans and cis-gendered women and genderqueer, non-binary people, for the very purpose of offering alternatives to male-dominated LGBT bars and clubs, I call BS

I can’t tell you how much I enjoy the juxtaposition of these two paragraphs Grin. I will translate from wokeish to English: “some lesbians complain that formerly lesbian spaces now feel unwelcoming as they’re not women only. I myself run a space that purports to be women only, but welcomes males, and I don’t see the problem”.

Grin
Helleofabore · 23/03/2021 15:26

How does inclusive language around medicine enable discrimination against women?

How about when Sands started to post without referring to women as Mothers? So that people who had lost their babies felt further dehumanised and detached from the organisation that was meant to be supporting them. And in the meantime, the female that tried to have themselves listed something other than their baby's mother, started bullying women saying that the Sand's post made them feel dehumanised.

Or when people concerned that there is a male in the breastfeeding fb group that can only meet on line and may need to show a picture of their latch or their body, and express that concern, they are told there is only women here in this group and that phobia is not welcome so if they are uncomfortable they should leave the group. (This has happened too during the past year in lockdown, if in doubt)

There are many ways this plays out.

The rape survivor that wrote and clarified that she only have a female hcp for her breast exam found her letter was being used by that NHS trust as an example of transphobia. Completely ignoring a) her privacy and b) the implication is that they would also ignore that request. (and still label that woman as a bigot when she refused if a transwoman was in attendance at her appointment. And I understand it is a legal right for anyone to ask and expect a same sex hcp).

Recently, the Scottish law was changed to allow a rape victim to request a female examiner. The law was going to be 'gender specific'. It is now sex specific. This puts the onus on the Scottish Government to make damn sure they have enough female examiners to be able to fulfil their legal obligations now.

Sophoclesthefox · 23/03/2021 15:27

@NiceGerbil

I think there was a suggestion that women and girls who didn't know was a cervix was, were thick or something.

Eye opening

Yep, I saw that. It was shameless. Really drove the point home that it’s not and never was about “inclusion”.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/03/2021 15:53

Also when the "Women's" March London tweeted (since deleted) that in 1973 there were "27 menstruators in parliament" ie basically using it as a dehumanising term for "women", rather than the totes inclusive language we are constantly gaslighted told it is by people like Lisa.

RedDogsBeg · 23/03/2021 15:53

Yep, I saw that. It was shameless. Really drove the point home that it’s not and never was about “inclusion”

Agreed, include people who are not biological women and no care, thought or consideration for those biological women who will be excluded most of whom will be vulnerable or already on the very edges of society. It's reprehensible.

Telling women and girls who have been subject to sexual abuse and rape and suffer appalling trauma because of it to just get over it summed up the revolting attitude and agenda of TRAs and their craven supporters who chant the TWAW mantra.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 23/03/2021 15:58

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Also when the "Women's" March London tweeted (since deleted) that in 1973 there were "27 menstruators in parliament" ie basically using it as a dehumanising term for "women", rather than the totes inclusive language we are constantly gaslighted told it is by people like Lisa.
Seriously? And they’d checked that none of those ‘menstruators’ had had a hysterectomy or gone through early menopause had they? How utterly ridiculous.