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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we the Baddies? Yes (well some!) according to the Daily Express: LGBT community is at war with itself, transphobia in the LGBT world has to STOP

140 replies

MishyJDI · 23/03/2021 12:09

I have to agree with a lot of this: Too much time worrying about a minority in echo chambers like this, and not enough fighting the real issues of feminism - patriarchy remains the number one enemy!

Mostly the younger generation get it, which is why there is such a disconnect and dismay expressed often on here.

(I'm sure this will make the Bunbury tales of scones and jam recipes - but seriously, trans ideology obsession on here is ludicrous.) Let's focus on real changes for women and girls that improve all our lives.

From the Daily Express

www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1413110/transphobic-trans-what-is-transgender-JK-Rowling-LGBT-community-TERF/amp?

The LGBT community is at war with itself, transphobia in the LGBT world has to STOP - COMMENT

RESIGNATIONS from three Government LGBT advisers over Equalities Minister Liz Truss and Boris Johnson's Government failure on LGBT rights (including dragging its feet to grant trans people rights in the UK) comes as no surprise.

By Maryann Wright

Ending the trans culture war once and for all, and outlawing so-called conversion therapy which treats sexuality and gender nonconformity as a choice or mental health problem, is a stagnant, three-year-old promise. Policy delay from the Conservative government is frustrating and devastating for our LGBT community, but the continual warfare amongst our own is a deeply insidious undercurrent that needs rooting out too. I’m talking about transphobia within the LGBT community.

The small group of lesbians who believe that transwomen aren’t real women because of an essentialist and reductionist belief that a woman’s identity is rooted in biology.

The distorted fear that transwomen will invade women’s spaces to victimise them, or even more outrageous, coerce lesbians to sleep with them, implying that lesbians must accept transwomen as sexual partners so as not to be labelled as trans-exclusionary, and that sex isn’t based on consent.

Or the assumption that men will misleadingly dress up as women and pose threats of sexual violence in women’s toilets because of Britain's 2010 Equality Act that protects trans people from discrimination in accessing single-sex spaces.

A small group of lesbian feminists called “Get the L Out” even go so far to claim that lesbian-only spaces are disappearing because of transwomen, “leading to difficulties in meeting like-minded women.”

As someone who runs women-only spaces inclusive of trans and cis-gendered women and genderqueer, non-binary people, for the very purpose of offering alternatives to male-dominated LGBT bars and clubs, I call BS.

I agree that LGBT spaces and activism is still male-dominated, and that more needs to be done to promote equality within the LGBT community, but the idea that transgender inclusivity harms women, and lesbians in particular, is just ludicrous.

Persecuting an even smaller minority within an already marginalised community is counter intuitive and harmful, whether you’re taking an LGBT or feminist perspective.

Firstly, let’s bust an insidious myth. There is no evidence that trans-inclusive laws lead to a rise in assaults, stalking or harassment in single-sex spaces.

The loud, transphobic noise coming from trans exclusionary radical feminists, or TERFs, of late is fear mongering.

Trans activism isn’t eroding women and girls' rights to single-sex spaces by "offering cover to predators," nor are trans-inclusionary policies "playing fast and loose with women's and girls' safety".

Do you know whose safety we are playing fast and loose with in this debate, though? Trans people.

Almost 50 percent of transgender people have experienced a hate crime because of their gender identity in the last 12 months, and 67 percent of trans people surveyed by the Government Equalities Office said they’d avoided being open about their gender identity for fear of a negative reaction.

Transphobic arguments weaponise transpeople as if they are transgressors, harking back to the old and demeaning cinematic trope of cross-dressing serial killers, and yet the reality is that trans people are the ones being transgressed.

We need to be protecting trans people, not the other way around. Any suggestion otherwise is incongruent to the facts.

It isn’t too small a point to also remember that transgender people make up 13 percent of the LGBT community, so any claims that transwomen are invading lesbian spaces is an exaggeration at best.

All of this fear mongering strikes me as history repeating itself.
Thirty years ago we were having this discussion about gay people, living under the revolting Section 28 of Margaret Thatcher’s government, which prohibited the promotion of homosexuality. Back then, living my cis lesbian life in the UK would have been questioned and persecuted.

Now, we are lucky to have made real progress in battling homophobia, and we need to ensure that progress passes down to our trans friends.

Lesbian rights are not under attack by the trans movement.
Transphobia has no place in feminism and no place in the LGBT community.

It is not a competition about who is having the most horrible time. There’s not a finite amount of equality.

Yes, the dominance of the patriarchy is alive and well, and misogyny is exhausting.

But it is not mutually exclusive to recognise that society as a whole is patriarchal and women are more likely to be killed by a partner, earn less, and find it difficult to go back to work after having a baby, and that people get to decide their gender identity.

Let’s also not confuse cismen with transwomen. The lived experience is entirely different, whether or not you respect their gender identity.
So many people have a complete disconnect with the lived experience of a trans person, and they don’t take time to consider this before casting judgment.

We need to stop perpetuating hypothetical fears not based in reality. The distortion and the hyperbole is destructive. The conversation has to mature.

How about we move the discussion to supporting trans people. Let’s ensure the Gender Recognition Act and Equality Act is fit for purpose. Let’s ban conversion therapy.

"Let’s instil a supportive framework within the LGBT community that encourages a person’s right to choose to express their gender identity."

The in-fighting needs to stop, let’s work with trans people to protect their right to a life of self-definition, safety and peace.

Maryann Wright is the Founder of Sappho Events, producing safe, sober and social events for LGBT women and non-binary people. www.sapphoevents.co.uk

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/03/2021 15:58

It's all ridiculous. They can't even follow their own rules.

UppityPuppity · 23/03/2021 16:01

As someone who runs women-only spaces inclusive of trans and cis-gendered women...I call BS.

You don’t call BS, you spout BS.

MichelleofzeResistance · 23/03/2021 16:06

If you don't think this is a real issue of feminism then you've got an extremely warped idea of what feminism means, and a problem with your lack of respect and care and inclusivity for female people.

The realities we're talking about are realities, and if you support idiocy like this article, what you essentially support is the oppression of many women particularly from vulnerable groups, homophobia and misogyny. At least have the guts to look into this, face up to the realities and own that you believe sex is binary, and that one sex should always have its needs met with the other sex having a duty to shut up, serve and be sacrificed.

You could support solutions in which all people matter and everyones needs are catered for.

StanfordPines · 23/03/2021 16:20

The small group of lesbians who believe that transwomen aren’t real women because of an essentialist and reductionist belief that a woman’s identity is rooted in biology.

What about gay men who think that trans men aren’t real men. Are they the same? Or is it just nasty lesbians.

WoolOfBat · 23/03/2021 16:39

mobile.twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1373625651434024964

Is this how we support trans women? By dedicating 20% of an obgyn course to trans women and 0% to menopausal issues?

yeahbutnaw · 23/03/2021 16:50

Solid agree.

It seems like most of the people on here treat trans-exclusion as a personality trait.

I see a lot of overlap with QAnon members to be honest. For most, it seems to be this pervasive obsession that they pursue regardless of how it affects their day-to-day lives.

Graham Linehan for example - gave up his career, marriage and friendships for it.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 23/03/2021 16:57

@yeahbutnaw

Solid agree.

It seems like most of the people on here treat trans-exclusion as a personality trait.

I see a lot of overlap with QAnon members to be honest. For most, it seems to be this pervasive obsession that they pursue regardless of how it affects their day-to-day lives.

Graham Linehan for example - gave up his career, marriage and friendships for it.

Good grief! So absolutely determined to give/take away the rights of women and girls to any dignity and safety!

And to say Linehan gave anything away is just the kind of re-writing we see a lot of.

Did Doc Stock piss up her own door too?

There's a phrase for that...

Rockinmomma · 23/03/2021 17:00

Mostly the younger generation get it, which is why there is such a disconnect and dismay expressed often on here

Right.... the generation stuck to devices? The generation dependent on validation of strangers? The generation with NO IDEA of reality?
The younger generation are easily led and groomed online, but sure.... they ‘get it’

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 23/03/2021 17:01

@WoolOfBat

mobile.twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1373625651434024964

Is this how we support trans women? By dedicating 20% of an obgyn course to trans women and 0% to menopausal issues?

This is mind blowing. How did we get here? Women's health is underfunded and under-researched as it is and now the work that is going on is being annexed.

"the gender health gap stems from a severe lack of historical research into women’s health issues."

www.thesun.co.uk/fabulous/14265113/women-illness-gender-health-gap-endometriosis/

Helmetbymidnight · 23/03/2021 17:02

Men must be allowed to play in women's sports. People who object are just like Q-anon.

Grin

Oh dear.

Helmetbymidnight · 23/03/2021 17:04

Men must be allowed to identify as women.

If you say no, you're probably a far-right conspiracy theorist.

Grin

You poor thing.

CharlieParley · 23/03/2021 17:06

@yeahbutnaw

Solid agree.

It seems like most of the people on here treat trans-exclusion as a personality trait.

I see a lot of overlap with QAnon members to be honest. For most, it seems to be this pervasive obsession that they pursue regardless of how it affects their day-to-day lives.

Graham Linehan for example - gave up his career, marriage and friendships for it.

Just answer me this question:

Where does the female survivor of male sexual violence go, when trans inclusion in the local rape crisis centre means the female-only therapeutic environment she needs to recover from male sexual violence is no longer offered?

I am not talking a hypothetical, but from my own lived experience.

What service may I access?

And if I can only have that service if I campaign to recreate that same service that female people built for female people 40 and 50 years ago, will you accept that the motivation for such a campaign would arise not from any bigotry on my part, but as an expression of my need for a female-only therapeutic environment to recover in?

(I'm talking about myself here, but I am far from alone in this. Given that frontline workers freely acknowledge that 99% of their female service users have a fear of male people and need a female-only therapeutic environment to recover this is not surprising. And I have indeed met and communicated with many other women who also find themselves excluded when male people are included in women's spaces and services.)

Usagi12 · 23/03/2021 17:07

@Helmetbymidnight

Men must be allowed to identify as women.

If you say no, you're probably a far-right conspiracy theorist.

Grin

You poor thing.

Not relevant to the conversation but I LOVE this username!
yeahbutnaw · 23/03/2021 17:09

It's your life -
Post obsessively about whatever you please,
Donate every penny to whatever failed legal crowdfunders you want,
Obsess about any minority that takes your fancy.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But base your entire personality on trans people?

merrymouse · 23/03/2021 17:10

The article completely and utterly fails to understand the first principles of human rights.

The small group of lesbians who believe that transwomen aren’t real women because of an essentialist and reductionist belief that a woman’s identity is rooted in biology.

Please explain, OP, why and when you think anyone creating policy and laws that restrict rights cares about identity?

Helmetbymidnight · 23/03/2021 17:14

It's your life -
Post obsessively about whatever you please,
Your posting here. But others post "obsessively".

Donate every penny to whatever failed legal crowdfunders you want,
Uh huh. Most of them have been succesful, no?

Obsess about any minority that takes your fancy.
Or maybe, just stand up for women and women's rights if that interest you. Again with the word 'obsess'. You're beginning to look a little...

Live your best life in peace and security. Natch.

But base your entire personality on trans people?
Um. Who do you think you're talking to here? You do understand this is a debate site, and some of us lead quite interesting lives out of here too. How could you base your entire personality on trans people, even if you wanted to?

I wish you'd just try to speak sense.

merrymouse · 23/03/2021 17:14

base your entire personality on trans people?

Do you understand that women and men are impacted differently by both the Covid virus itself, and the social consequences of restrictions? Do you think this has anything to do with their ‘identity’.

Helmetbymidnight · 23/03/2021 17:15

You can't ask questions - that means you are obsessing/basing your personality on trans people/ very like Q Anon.

Hmm
Sophoclesthefox · 23/03/2021 17:16

And yet here you are, obsessively scolding us, yeahbut Grin

Man alive, I don’t think I’ve used “I Know you are, but what am I?” Since high school 🤣 what’s next, “your mum”? The silly article really set the tone for silliness.

PearPickingPorky · 23/03/2021 17:19

What is the justification and legitimate aim of a space for only "women and non-binary people"?

Seems a strange mish-mash.

MummBraTheEverLeaking · 23/03/2021 17:29

Blah blah blah mean nasty women blah blah terfs blah blah biology blah blah safety and peace.

That just about sums it up for me 🙄

Datun · 23/03/2021 17:59

@yeahbutnaw

It's your life - Post obsessively about whatever you please, Donate every penny to whatever failed legal crowdfunders you want, Obsess about any minority that takes your fancy. Live your best life in peace and security. But base your entire personality on trans people?
Haha!

Do you really not see the irony of your last sentence? Who is basing their entire lives on women?

gardenbird48 · 23/03/2021 17:59

where did OP go?

Have they left the chat?

DialSquare · 23/03/2021 18:03

Maybe they've gone round the world with Lisa to help her find her baby.

Helmetbymidnight · 23/03/2021 18:06
Grin

i cant imagine how it is to want to dismantle women's sports and rights and then to suggest anyone who resists is like Q-anon.

i mean...really?