Are we the Baddies? Yes (well some!) according to the Daily Express: LGBT community is at war with itself, transphobia in the LGBT world has to STOP

[MishyJDI]

I have to agree with a lot of this: Too much time worrying about a minority in echo chambers like this, and not enough fighting the real issues of feminism - patriarchy remains the number one enemy!

Mostly the younger generation get it, which is why there is such a disconnect and dismay expressed often on here.

(I'm sure this will make the Bunbury tales of scones and jam recipes - but seriously, trans ideology obsession on here is ludicrous.) Let's focus on real changes for women and girls that improve all our lives.

From the Daily Express

www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1413110/transphobic-trans-what-is-transgender-JK-Rowling-LGBT-community-TERF/amp?

The LGBT community is at war with itself, transphobia in the LGBT world has to STOP - COMMENT

RESIGNATIONS from three Government LGBT advisers over Equalities Minister Liz Truss and Boris Johnson's Government failure on LGBT rights (including dragging its feet to grant trans people rights in the UK) comes as no surprise.

By Maryann Wright

Ending the trans culture war once and for all, and outlawing so-called conversion therapy which treats sexuality and gender nonconformity as a choice or mental health problem, is a stagnant, three-year-old promise. Policy delay from the Conservative government is frustrating and devastating for our LGBT community, but the continual warfare amongst our own is a deeply insidious undercurrent that needs rooting out too. I’m talking about transphobia within the LGBT community.

The small group of lesbians who believe that transwomen aren’t real women because of an essentialist and reductionist belief that a woman’s identity is rooted in biology.

The distorted fear that transwomen will invade women’s spaces to victimise them, or even more outrageous, coerce lesbians to sleep with them, implying that lesbians must accept transwomen as sexual partners so as not to be labelled as trans-exclusionary, and that sex isn’t based on consent.

Or the assumption that men will misleadingly dress up as women and pose threats of sexual violence in women’s toilets because of Britain's 2010 Equality Act that protects trans people from discrimination in accessing single-sex spaces.

A small group of lesbian feminists called “Get the L Out” even go so far to claim that lesbian-only spaces are disappearing because of transwomen, “leading to difficulties in meeting like-minded women.”

As someone who runs women-only spaces inclusive of trans and cis-gendered women and genderqueer, non-binary people, for the very purpose of offering alternatives to male-dominated LGBT bars and clubs, I call BS.

I agree that LGBT spaces and activism is still male-dominated, and that more needs to be done to promote equality within the LGBT community, but the idea that transgender inclusivity harms women, and lesbians in particular, is just ludicrous.

Persecuting an even smaller minority within an already marginalised community is counter intuitive and harmful, whether you’re taking an LGBT or feminist perspective.

Firstly, let’s bust an insidious myth. There is no evidence that trans-inclusive laws lead to a rise in assaults, stalking or harassment in single-sex spaces.

The loud, transphobic noise coming from trans exclusionary radical feminists, or TERFs, of late is fear mongering.

Trans activism isn’t eroding women and girls' rights to single-sex spaces by "offering cover to predators," nor are trans-inclusionary policies "playing fast and loose with women's and girls' safety".

Do you know whose safety we are playing fast and loose with in this debate, though? Trans people.

Almost 50 percent of transgender people have experienced a hate crime because of their gender identity in the last 12 months, and 67 percent of trans people surveyed by the Government Equalities Office said they’d avoided being open about their gender identity for fear of a negative reaction.

Transphobic arguments weaponise transpeople as if they are transgressors, harking back to the old and demeaning cinematic trope of cross-dressing serial killers, and yet the reality is that trans people are the ones being transgressed.

We need to be protecting trans people, not the other way around. Any suggestion otherwise is incongruent to the facts.

It isn’t too small a point to also remember that transgender people make up 13 percent of the LGBT community, so any claims that transwomen are invading lesbian spaces is an exaggeration at best.

All of this fear mongering strikes me as history repeating itself.
Thirty years ago we were having this discussion about gay people, living under the revolting Section 28 of Margaret Thatcher’s government, which prohibited the promotion of homosexuality. Back then, living my cis lesbian life in the UK would have been questioned and persecuted.

Now, we are lucky to have made real progress in battling homophobia, and we need to ensure that progress passes down to our trans friends.

Lesbian rights are not under attack by the trans movement.
Transphobia has no place in feminism and no place in the LGBT community.

It is not a competition about who is having the most horrible time. There’s not a finite amount of equality.

Yes, the dominance of the patriarchy is alive and well, and misogyny is exhausting.

But it is not mutually exclusive to recognise that society as a whole is patriarchal and women are more likely to be killed by a partner, earn less, and find it difficult to go back to work after having a baby, and that people get to decide their gender identity.

Let’s also not confuse cismen with transwomen. The lived experience is entirely different, whether or not you respect their gender identity.
So many people have a complete disconnect with the lived experience of a trans person, and they don’t take time to consider this before casting judgment.

We need to stop perpetuating hypothetical fears not based in reality. The distortion and the hyperbole is destructive. The conversation has to mature.

How about we move the discussion to supporting trans people. Let’s ensure the Gender Recognition Act and Equality Act is fit for purpose. Let’s ban conversion therapy.

"Let’s instil a supportive framework within the LGBT community that encourages a person’s right to choose to express their gender identity."

The in-fighting needs to stop, let’s work with trans people to protect their right to a life of self-definition, safety and peace.

Maryann Wright is the Founder of Sappho Events, producing safe, sober and social events for LGBT women and non-binary people. www.sapphoevents.co.uk

@LisaStansfield

“ But the 'lived experience of a transwoman' is not the same as the 'lived experience of a woman' either.

But we are told to say that it is.”

Where? By whom? Women do not share one common experience of womanhood, however that is defined.

So feminism is defined as something for everyone then?

"the reality of moving through society without experiencing discrimination"

indeed and I can see no way that allowing men no matter how they present into women's spaces in anyway helps women facing discrimination.

How does letting TW take up spaces on programmes designed to increase women's representation in e.g STEM or politics help advance the cause of women? how does changing information on cervical cancer from women to "cervix haver" help challenge discrimination against women? how does letting TW play women's rugby and "fold opponents like deckchairs" help the equality of women?

My experience as a woman who is a lesbian is very similar to the experience of a woman who is not, because our shared biology is the basis for our experiences.
I share nothing of those experiences at all with a male person who claims the identity 'lesbian'. This is really very simple.

Thirty years ago we were having this discussion about gay people, living under the revolting Section 28 of Margaret Thatcher’s government, which prohibited the promotion of homosexuality.

No it didn't. Not in general. You could promote homosexuality as much as you wanted in the world of adult politics.

It did limit local education/ teachers from giving propaganda to kids, but there are all sorts of things that teachers shouldn't be allowed to promote in the classroom.

As someone who runs women-only spaces inclusive of trans and cis-gendered women and genderqueer, non-binary people, for the very purpose of offering alternatives to male-dominated LGBT bars and clubs, I call BS.

As someone who runs women only spaces that are not women only.... neither by sex or gender identity if she lets in non binary people. Does she know what she means by any of this or is it just a collection of random words?

The in-fighting needs to stop, let’s work with trans people to protect their right to a life of self-definition, safety and peace.

I’m not sure what a ‘right to self definition’ is. She may have got confused with the human rights to self determination but as Prof Rosa Freedman pointed out, that is not a right for individuals - it is a right for ‘a people’ ie all the Yazidi people to elect a democratic leader or otherwise freely choose their sovereignty.

We all have a right to safety (although some seem keen to exercise theirs at a cost to others). I’m not sure about a right to peace? I quite like the idea of a bit of peace and quiet but I’m not aware of it as a human right.

What a dismal fact free article.

How does inclusive language around medicine enable discrimination against women? How can a civil debate about when it is and is not appropriate to include trans women in women’s spaces and places be had when they are constantly misrepresented as perverts and predators? How is it possible to argue in favour of less medical intervention for young trans people while simultaneously ridiculing trans people who do not pass?

Yeah, shut up informed women who know what's what. You should be doing only what men deem important!

@OvaHere

We hardly get any MRAs visiting here these days. Just TRAs. I wonder where all the MRAs went?

They’re still here they just hide better now. They mainly start threads in relationships about how their ‘friend’ had his sperm stolen by a deceitful woman who wants his child support now.

@dworky

Yeah, shut up informed women who know what's what. You should be doing only what men deem important!

Where are you getting this? What men?

women are more likely to be killed by a partner, earn less, and find it difficult to go back to work after having a baby, and that people get to decide their gender identity.

Does this read a bit oddly to anyone else or is it just me? It’s as if the writer is first talking about women as members of the sex who have babies, & then saying that whether someone is a woman depends on their gender identity.

How is it possible to argue in favour of less medical intervention for young trans people while simultaneously ridiculing trans people who do not pass?

That’s an interesting take. It appears that we are being blamed for children being out onto hormones. Is that what you meant to imply?

Let’s also not confuse cismen with transwomen. The lived experience is entirely different, whether or not you respect their gender identity. So many people have a complete disconnect with the lived experience of a trans person, and they don’t take time to consider this before casting judgment.

And the lived experience of women is dismissed and belittled by everyone on the TRA, gender ideology side. Women's lives and experiences don't matter, the reason for their oppression and the discrimination against them doesn't matter, the violence enacted against women doesn't matter the only thing that matters to the include everybody whatever mob are TW's, what they want overrides everything, what women want or need is a complete irrelevance. That's not striving for equality, it is something else entirely and a dangerous something else at that. (I daren't put what I consider it to be as it will be deleted, I am sure those on FWR will know what I mean though).

The small group of lesbians who believe that transwomen aren’t real women because of an essentialist and reductionist belief that a woman’s identity is rooted in biology.

And most of the world's population. It isn't just a tiny number of lesbians who know how babies are made. And we're not talking about identity (a person's personality and the belief they have about what group they belong to on any number of issues) when we're discussing the issues caused when male people are included in the legal set asides created for female people. We're talking about material reality - sex - and the real consequences that flow from being born female in a male-dominated world.

Or the assumption that men will misleadingly dress up as women and pose threats of sexual violence in women’s toilets

Reductionist and misleading. We moved well beyond that limited issue a long time ago, both in our discourse and what's happening on the ground.

Britain's 2010 Equality Act that protects trans people from discrimination in accessing [the] single-sex spaces [of their own sex].

Fixed it for you.

@EmpressWitchDoesntBurn

women are more likely to be killed by a partner, earn less, and find it difficult to go back to work after having a baby, and that people get to decide their gender identity.

Does this read a bit oddly to anyone else or is it just me? It’s as if the writer is first talking about women as members of the sex who have babies, & then saying that whether someone is a woman depends on their gender identity.

No. The writer is just saying that two issues, which are otherwise unconnected, it seems, are not mutually exclusive. People can still choose their gender identity even though women have babies, get killed by partners and so on. The one does not exclude the other. They can both be recognised.

I get so sick of defending the 'you think all trans women are predators' line.

No one says that. The closest I have ever heard a conversation come is when someone says 'it never happens' and a woman says 'actually it has happened here, here and here'

'Ah. So you're saying because there are some bad apples that all trans people are like that.'

No! It's not a gotcha.

It goes back to why do we have single sex exemptions. It is for far more reasons than fear of attack. It is about dignity, comfort, facilities that cater for our biological needs... it goes on.

Having a reasoned opinion reduced to 'you think all trans women want to hurt you' is so fucking tedious.

No. The writer is just saying that two issues, which are otherwise unconnected, it seems, are not mutually exclusive. People can still choose their gender identity even though women have babies, get killed by partners and so on. The one does not exclude the other. They can both be recognised.

I’m all for anyone choosing their gender identity or any other sort of identity as long as it doesn’t involve them accessing the single spaces, facilities or provisions of the opposite sex or breaking down women’s boundaries/ undermine safeguarding.

The TRAs are MRAs. There is zero difference. They both argue for male rights of control and access over female lives.

Too much time worrying about a minority in echo chambers like this, and not enough fighting the real issues of feminism - patriarchy remains the number one enemy!

So many questions for Maryann.

Have a missed a research paper?
Do we have quantified evidence of how much time is spent on each issue?
What percentage of time is "too much".

Or is this just a(nother) guilt tripping myth?

We should be told Maryann, where are the experts that have done all this time analysis? (instead of fighting the patriarchy I might add).

And if your evidence is only mumsnet then I suggest you widen your "issues" research scope as you are actually operating as the echo on this one.

Does anyone else find it offensive to put transwoman in the same sentence as black woman, disabled woman, asian woman, muslim women - i.e. the list of women who are biologically women and therefore represented by feminism and need to have their rights advanced and defended by us - and adding in a group of people who do not need to be part of a women's movement.

As someone who runs women-only spaces inclusive of trans and cis-gendered women and genderqueer, non-binary people, for the very purpose of offering alternatives to male-dominated LGBT bars and clubs, I call BS.

As someone excluded from some single-sex spaces due to the inclusion of male people and who has met and talked to other women excluded from all or many previously single-sex women's spaces on grounds of their need for privacy or their experience of male violence or their cultural or religious background I call BS on this BS.

To repeat a familiar mantra, we exist. We may be invisible to you, but we do exist. If you include male people in a space intended for female people, you exclude us. Those female people who need a single-sex space. That's not rocket science. That's not an argument asking you to stop offering such a space - I'm sure that those who frequent yours are happy and comfortable within it and I see nothing wrong with you providing it.

But that's not you providing a fully inclusive women's space. There is only one way to offer a space that is inclusive of all female people regardless of their privacy needs or their history of male violence or their cultural or religious background and that is to exclude males. All males, regardless of their identity.

People can choose their identity?
Perhaps they can try, but other people also can choose to reject and deny such false identity claims too.

People make all sorts of false claims, yes, and others get to judge the merits of them and reject them if need be.

If anyone else cares to claim "I identify as Barracker off Mumsnet, that's my identity, don't challenge it" I'm going to say, nope, false claim, I reject it, you're an imposter.

If every single person I met claimed "I identify as Barracker's sex, female, that's my identity, don't challenge it" I'm still going to challenge roughly 50% of those false claims just as robustly.

My sex is no more up for grabs as an identity than my individuality is.
Material facts are not identities. Not for anybody.

If someone cares desperately to tell the world something about themselves as a person, they need to avail themselves of the many thousands of descriptive words out there in the English language that might fit.
But to choose a word that is in usage already and which already describes a group's material characteristics, and to attempt to redefine all the people it currently describes?
Nah.
That's not your identity, chum. That's my body type, and that's that.

@Annasgirl

Does anyone else find it offensive to put transwoman in the same sentence as black woman, disabled woman, asian woman, muslim women - i.e. the list of women who are biologically women and therefore represented by feminism and need to have their rights advanced and defended by us - and adding in a group of people who do not need to be part of a women's movement.

I find it so fucking offensive I could explode.

@Annasgirl

Does anyone else find it offensive to put transwoman in the same sentence as black woman, disabled woman, asian woman, muslim women - i.e. the list of women who are biologically women and therefore represented by feminism and need to have their rights advanced and defended by us - and adding in a group of people who do not need to be part of a women's movement.

Yes. It's pure gynophobic bigotry.

Why would "women and non binary people" constitute any sort of meaningful group however you define "woman"?