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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

This never happens - man jailed for rape and attempted rape in women’s toilets

110 replies

IDanielRadcliffe · 17/03/2021 18:14

news.sky.com/story/former-bristol-city-footballer-who-targeted-women-in-nightclubs-jailed-for-rape-offences-12248824

“He has on two separate occasions subjected women to violent acts in what should be a safe and private space.”

OP posts:
AdHominemNonSequitur · 18/03/2021 15:31

In response to comment about it not being illegal. Long may penis reign. Oh no.. that's part of the problem

MissBarbary · 18/03/2021 16:30

@outedbyfaircop

What toilet should trans men and butch women use? Why is it easier for cis men to pretend to be trans women than trans men?
On here the case put forward is usually trans men should use the female toilets because they are female and even those who pass well will obviously be trans men at a second glance.

If single-sex toilets are important to you I'm not convinced that the second part of that argument is a compelling one. Of the well known trans men Buck Angel, Chaz Bono , Freddy McConnell , Chase Joynt and even Fox of Fox and Owl fame, for example do not look like anything other than men.

Juliesipadwillcallyouback · 18/03/2021 17:35

Men choose entire careers based on being able to access vulnerable people - doctors, priests, sports coaches. They will take all sorts of risks, do all sorts of stupid shit to carry out crimes. We know this for a fact.

People who don't think that predatory males will take advantage of a culture of 'self id', where any man can declare himself to be a woman just on his say so and therefore have the right to be in women's spaces, is either incredibly naive or incredibly stupid. Maybe both.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 18/03/2021 17:55

"Of the well known trans men Buck Angel, Chaz Bono , Freddy McConnell, Chase Joynt and even Fox of Fox and Owl fame, for example do not look like anything other than men."

And in at least the case of Buck Angel, know this and do not use women's public lavatories. He gets called very unpleasant names by TRAs because of having said this.

2021Vision · 18/03/2021 18:30

Perhaps trans people could be kind and understanding, afterall they are the ones that are saying that they are not their sex observed at birth but would rather go by gender. They should campaign for their own facilities rather than just barging in and using what they want.

Just to add Freddy McConnell absolutely knows what sex they are, they've had a baby for gods sake, they are a mother!

gardenbird48 · 18/03/2021 19:35

[quote Shizuku]And this:

www.autostraddle.com/butch-please-butch-in-the-bathroom175366/[/quote]
so which do you think would be more helpful, opening up the womens toilets to any male that chooses, causing us all to be on our guard all the time or...

reinforce women's single sex spaces firmly so we can be comfortable in the knowledge that the person that on first glance looks like a man is most likely to be a woman and worth a second glance to confirm before we take action?

I think women of all body shapes and looks (only female though) have managed perfectly fine for years - I have some very masculine looking friends who have never had a problem, ever. There was a quite long thread on twitter with other women reflecting that view when Stonewall was trying to push your butch lesbian = problem as well Shiz

bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 18/03/2021 21:08

@outedbyfaircop

What toilet should trans men and butch women use? Why is it easier for cis men to pretend to be trans women than trans men?
I've been challenged in the loos a few times. Every single time, when I've said "you're mistaken, I'm female", the other person has looked like they were dying of embarrassment and started apologising. These days, I follow my sex disclosure with "I'd rather be challenged than not, if it helps you feel safe".
bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg · 18/03/2021 21:29

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

"Of the well known trans men Buck Angel, Chaz Bono , Freddy McConnell, Chase Joynt and even Fox of Fox and Owl fame, for example do not look like anything other than men."

And in at least the case of Buck Angel, know this and do not use women's public lavatories. He gets called very unpleasant names by TRAs because of having said this.

  1. Testosterone has such a powerful effect upon the body that, not only can it make an adult female body look and sound male, it cannot be fully reversed.

  2. The eyes and browline can show sex if they are visible. I figured this out when I realised I could still determine sex and identity of someone wearing a mask, a useful side-effect of having learned to match a bearded photo with a clean-shaven man or vice-versa. We have photo ids at work and I can check them without ever asking for the mask to be lowered, although I sometimes have to ask for hats to be removed.

  3. I appreciate Buck's consideration for us and am very willing to fight for safe, single-occupant spaces so that transmen do not have to choose between alarming women or running the gauntlet of the gents.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 18/03/2021 21:54

In his case I suspect that the gents would be running the gauntlet of him if they were discourteous, to be fair.

merrymouse · 18/03/2021 22:04

People who don't think that predatory males will take advantage of a culture of 'self id', where any man can declare himself to be a woman just on his say so and therefore have the right to be in women's spaces, is either incredibly naive or incredibly stupid. Maybe both.

We already know that they wouldn’t have to declare anything. Organisations just declare all toilets/changing rooms unisex rather than challenge anyone.

I think it would have been much more difficult to argue that the woman hadn’t agreed to meet him if the toilets were unisex.

ChoosandChipsandSealingWax · 19/03/2021 04:29

@Juliesipadwillcallyouback

Men choose entire careers based on being able to access vulnerable people - doctors, priests, sports coaches. They will take all sorts of risks, do all sorts of stupid shit to carry out crimes. We know this for a fact.

People who don't think that predatory males will take advantage of a culture of 'self id', where any man can declare himself to be a woman just on his say so and therefore have the right to be in women's spaces, is either incredibly naive or incredibly stupid. Maybe both.

Exactly this!

It is Transphobic to ask that a trans-women pass. It is sexist and misogynistic to demand a performance of femininity.

So with Self ID any man is then able to enter female spaces. This renders all spaces mixed sex.

How can we tell which ones are safe? It’s naive to think predators won’t abuse this loophole.

Predators prey. safeguarding matters.

At least one in five women have been Sexually assaulted. Rape has such low prosecution rates as to be practically legal. Studies show when spaces become mixed sex there are ten times the number of assaults. So I worry we’ll see a rise in opportunistic crimes. Much harder to prosecute rape if the men are allowed to be there, as it becomes a “he said, she said”, rather than “well it looks pretty dodgy you were there, TBH.”

We already know predators particularly target the vulnerable, and will go to great lengths to gain access. Just ask the Scouts, the Catholic Church, schools. There’s a reason for DBS checks, and safeguarding.

A recent study has shown that reports of sexual incidents are at least 10 times more likely in mixed-sex changing rooms compared to single-sex changing rooms.

Not all males present a risk to females, but some do and it is not possible for women to reliably determine which individual males do present a risk when they first encounter a stranger.

Single sex spaces are necessary.

Shizuku · 19/03/2021 11:47

"So with Self ID any man is then able to enter female spaces."

But even without self ID, any man is able to enter female spaces, as the OP demonstrates.

Even if it was illegal for trans women to use women's toilets, the same men can just pretend to be trans men. It's actually makes it even easier for them because they don't have to bother with make-up, wigs and feminine clothes - they can just go in as they are.

And there is no shortage of predatory men who are small and could pass for trans men:

www.murdermiletours.com/blog/serial-killers-murderers-by-height

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 19/03/2021 12:18

Size, shape, secondary sexual characteristics or primary sexual characteristics are not relevant to someone's belief about their gender, Shizuku; it is transphobic to suggest that height is relevant.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 19/03/2021 12:20

Women's single sex spaces are mandated by law in many cases; and provided that men walking into them is neither legally nor socially acceptable, as it was not during the twentieth century, a man who walked into one could and would be ejected when he was noticed, or even prevented from going in at all.

Self-ID would mean that any man could purport to be a woman entirely on his own say-so.

And that would mean that because any man might be or think himself to be female and self-ID as female, no man could be requested to leave a single-sex space reserved for the use of women -- in case he self-identified as female and his feelings would be hurt if this were questioned.

Thus if eg Kirk Reid or John Lambe or John Worboys or James Lloyd had happened to feel like finding a victim or two in a single-sex gym changing-room reserved for the use of women, he would have been able to claim he self-identified as a woman and go in if he chose. And preventing him from doing so or questioning his presence in that single-sex space would have been an act of transphobic hate.

Doyoumind · 19/03/2021 12:39

[quote Shizuku]"So with Self ID any man is then able to enter female spaces."

But even without self ID, any man is able to enter female spaces, as the OP demonstrates.

Even if it was illegal for trans women to use women's toilets, the same men can just pretend to be trans men. It's actually makes it even easier for them because they don't have to bother with make-up, wigs and feminine clothes - they can just go in as they are.

And there is no shortage of predatory men who are small and could pass for trans men:

www.murdermiletours.com/blog/serial-killers-murderers-by-height[/quote]
What a ridiculous argument.

Wondermule · 19/03/2021 12:46

Isn’t it depressing that we have to debate the chances of a rapist accessing our spaces to make our point, rather than just saying we want our own spaces and that is that 🙄 just making our wishes known should be enough.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2021 13:20

It's strange that none of these rapists have been pretending to be FTM before really, isn't it?

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 19/03/2021 13:47

Those posters declaring "any man can enter a sex segregated space anyway, so ..."

Are you saying we should abolish this segregation all together? Or should we just let TW enter? Where is the evidence that a TW is less of a risk than say, my DH?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 19/03/2021 14:10

Shizuko is saying transwomen are entirely women, but maybe not female, but women nonetheless.

Apparently gender identity is something more than cleaving to sex stereotypes, it is innate and unmeasurable, but real and cannot be denied.

There was more, but I'm not sure I understood it, unraveled the internal inconsistencies, well enough to precis it.

Sorry 😐

gardenbird48 · 19/03/2021 14:56

Even if it was illegal for trans women to use women's toilets, the same men can just pretend to be trans men. It's actually makes it even easier for them because they don't have to bother with make-up, wigs and feminine clothes - they can just go in as they are.

that's a new one - men pretending to be transmen - at least Shiz recognises that some men will go to any lengths to get at vulnerable women.

How about we just ban all male people from women's single sex facilities. I'm not too bothered where transmen go as long as if they wish to use the ladies, they don't mind a few eyebrows until we clock the unchangeable physical characteristics that mark them out as female.

Small men will be instantly identifiable as small men.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 19/03/2021 15:28

It's strange how stupid women are always assumed to be, really. I have never known a woman who was unable to tell a male person from a female person, even in poor light and at a distance, yet women are expected constantly to be deceived by men about what the man's sex is, at close quarters.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 19/03/2021 15:28

Yeah! That's a bit I'm still trying to digest, bring to the light 😊

Shizuku · 19/03/2021 18:17

@Wondermule

Isn’t it depressing that we have to debate the chances of a rapist accessing our spaces to make our point, rather than just saying we want our own spaces and that is that 🙄 just making our wishes known should be enough.
Your wishes require trans women to pretend they don't think they're women. That sounds as stupid to them as it would if someone said it to you.