Reclaim These Streets have been captured.

[stumbledin]

It was inevitable of course. Whatever the original intentions of the local women who set up the facebook event page, given the huge response they have had, it was just to tempting for those who always want to be in control not to take over.

So now there is a Reclaim These Streets facebook group www.facebook.com/groups/282187170119807/ which of course loads of women have joined. And although it is meant to be about sharing your experiences, your ideas, your whatever, turns out the group admins will not let your voice be heard if you dont express yourself in an approved way.

No need to detail what that is, but once again the vanguard of well schooled stonewall students are definitely in charge.

And of course this also applies to the now in excess of half a million pounds raisde for women's projects. It has been decreed - by knee jerk tweet that only trans inclusive groups will get women.

Tough luck on those providing women only services as legally allowed under the EA. So rape crisis helplines, women refuges, many BME groups will be deemed not worthy of financial support.

How come there are never enough mumsnetters out and about on facebook or wherever to capture groups?

I’d love to see any evidence that GC women have ever made any death threats! On the other hand the number of rape and death threats from TRAs runs into thousands.

I think, the fact the women suffering from internalised misogyny threatening to come over to this thread and tell actual feminists off for daring jot to be silenced, but them didn't post, speaks volumes. Repeating mantras like the possessed does not an argument make.

But upset me the most i think was the glee in the threat of trying to silence other women. The glee in the tone whenever a woman is removed from the group for posting links to women only services etc.

So RTS hunbots, if you’re reading this and you are one of those women who get excited when another woman is silenced, it is you that’s the problem.

That’s just reminded me of what the other thing i keep seeing there that I find upsetting. Telling women they are part of the problem with male violence against women for saying tw are different to w. A group set up because of male violence against women telling women they are part of the problem bu not centring the penis. Madness. Utter madness.

Surely we've reached the point where we assume that everyone has been captured and announce when we come across organisations that have "escaped" ?

I'm part of the Facebook group. It's awful. When the group started it was wonderful to see women coming together as one in such huge numbers at the same time. I thought genuine change was in the air and some real good could be done.

I've watch feminist ally after ally being verbally attacked, silenced and then blocked, good women who have fought for and done so much for women and girls. The group is just oppression olympics now, one giant race to the bottom so they can decide which type of 'woman' is in the most need (by their standards).

It's heartbreaking reading the comments that applaud and mock every time another woman has been blocked, you can see them all searching for their next victim. There's no chance of activism there, no chance of change.

The good thing to see is comments (probably deleted by now), advocating that women read what gender critical women are saying on mumsnet, this post being linked might actually reach women who are doubting the TWAW party line, but being to afraid to question what is going on.

Yes those comments have gone and posters banned if they don’t answer the new questions on the front page re police and and trans correctly. Pity that so many women will no longer be part of the movement to stop violence to women movement.... except we have been doing it for years and we will continue, but not with men at the centre of course.

I joined the Reclaim FB page. I’m passionate about women and girls safety. I’ve been on protests, signed petitions, emails to MPs etc. However this page isn’t interested in protecting non penis women and girls rights. I think a lot of members are confused. There needs to be a proper discussion as to who the page is for. I certainly don’t see why I need to protect EI. Yet this is what this page is saying - all the time it’s about welcoming the penis - yet it is the penis that causes the problem. The admins stop any debate as to whether that is right. I’m completely confused now. The ideas and passion on the page though is great. Just not for sex based rights.

Interesting that not one person on that thread has come here to say a word, including the people claiming they were/would.

Telling women they are part of the problem with male violence against women for saying tw are different to w. A group set up because of male violence against women telling women they are part of the problem [for] not centring the penis. Madness. Utter madness.

It really is

Maybe because most women and feminists are trans inclusive? Mumsnet feminist chat is an echo chamber really, not real life.

Where to start? Most people don't really think about being 'trans inclusive' or not. When they do the majority of people think of 'post-op' transwomen, who have been 'living as women' for years.

They think of 'Elaine' down the road who seems perfectly nice. There are a number of women, possibly a majority, who wouldn't be overly concerned if 'Elaine' joined the women's book club. They may say 'oh yes, Elaine is a woman', but they don't think 'Elaine' is female. They wouldn't imagine that 'Elaine' understands what it was like being a girl, or starting periods, or giving birth or approaching the menopause. Most of the time those things don't matter, but sometimes they do.

The men might think of 'Elaine' as a woman, but not 'for relationship purposes'. So not really.

Most people don't consider 'Summer', who last week was Shaun, to be a woman. That doesn't mean they think 'Summer' should be discriminated against, or ridiculed or not 'included' in the conversations where his sex is irrelevant, but they don't think he's a woman. Some women may feel protective of 'Summer'. 'Summer' seems vulnerable, but 'Summer' is still not a woman. When 'Summer' says 'she' has always felt like a woman, lots of women may listen. They may think 'that's nice', but they still don't want 'Summer' in refuges for vulnerable women, and they still want services to be able to exclude 'Summer' when appropriate.

In 'real life', people are polite, they avoid confrontation, but if you think that means that the majority think 'TWAW', then i'm unconvinced you take part in much 'real life'.

@BackToLurk

Maybe because most women and feminists are trans inclusive? Mumsnet feminist chat is an echo chamber really, not real life.

Where to start? Most people don't really think about being 'trans inclusive' or not. When they do the majority of people think of 'post-op' transwomen, who have been 'living as women' for years.

They think of 'Elaine' down the road who seems perfectly nice. There are a number of women, possibly a majority, who wouldn't be overly concerned if 'Elaine' joined the women's book club. They may say 'oh yes, Elaine is a woman', but they don't think 'Elaine' is female. They wouldn't imagine that 'Elaine' understands what it was like being a girl, or starting periods, or giving birth or approaching the menopause. Most of the time those things don't matter, but sometimes they do.

The men might think of 'Elaine' as a woman, but not 'for relationship purposes'. So not really.

Most people don't consider 'Summer', who last week was Shaun, to be a woman. That doesn't mean they think 'Summer' should be discriminated against, or ridiculed or not 'included' in the conversations where his sex is irrelevant, but they don't think he's a woman. Some women may feel protective of 'Summer'. 'Summer' seems vulnerable, but 'Summer' is still not a woman. When 'Summer' says 'she' has always felt like a woman, lots of women may listen. They may think 'that's nice', but they still don't want 'Summer' in refuges for vulnerable women, and they still want services to be able to exclude 'Summer' when appropriate.

In 'real life', people are polite, they avoid confrontation, but if you think that means that the majority think 'TWAW', then i'm unconvinced you take part in much 'real life'.

In a nutshell!

This ☝️Exactly

@BackToLurk

Maybe because most women and feminists are trans inclusive? Mumsnet feminist chat is an echo chamber really, not real life.

Where to start? Most people don't really think about being 'trans inclusive' or not. When they do the majority of people think of 'post-op' transwomen, who have been 'living as women' for years.

They think of 'Elaine' down the road who seems perfectly nice. There are a number of women, possibly a majority, who wouldn't be overly concerned if 'Elaine' joined the women's book club. They may say 'oh yes, Elaine is a woman', but they don't think 'Elaine' is female. They wouldn't imagine that 'Elaine' understands what it was like being a girl, or starting periods, or giving birth or approaching the menopause. Most of the time those things don't matter, but sometimes they do.

The men might think of 'Elaine' as a woman, but not 'for relationship purposes'. So not really.

Most people don't consider 'Summer', who last week was Shaun, to be a woman. That doesn't mean they think 'Summer' should be discriminated against, or ridiculed or not 'included' in the conversations where his sex is irrelevant, but they don't think he's a woman. Some women may feel protective of 'Summer'. 'Summer' seems vulnerable, but 'Summer' is still not a woman. When 'Summer' says 'she' has always felt like a woman, lots of women may listen. They may think 'that's nice', but they still don't want 'Summer' in refuges for vulnerable women, and they still want services to be able to exclude 'Summer' when appropriate.

In 'real life', people are polite, they avoid confrontation, but if you think that means that the majority think 'TWAW', then i'm unconvinced you take part in much 'real life'.

exactly this

most people haven't given it much thought and it never occurs to them that when they're instructed to repeat TWAW, it means they're meant to believe TWAW are literal women the same as their mum. They just think they're being nice to or about someone who's probably quite troubled and what harm can it do.

When it's pointed out that no TWAW is meant to mean TW are literal women and no women's only space should be out of bounds to them, that's when they start to go "hang on....."

@Jillly

Interesting that not one person on that thread has come here to say a word, including the people claiming they were/would.

Hmmmmn.

I wonder if any of the "wrong" women will come over for a gander?

If so, you're very welcome

@Silvergreen

They're a TRA group. They've even linked to this thread and are making comments about how mumsnet should stick to baking cookies and potty training with no irony or insight into how misogynistic their comments are.

I find this comment particularly pertinant.

I was staying with a well known women's activist when my daughter was seriously ill in hospital - this woman barely knew me, but offered me her home and front door key, so that myself and my son could stay close to the hospital. That in itself was illuminating as to how women support each other.

During this period we had the plea hearing for Tara Flick Wood, so my son and I went along to give support to MM and I thought an interesting learning journey for my then 11 year old.

As we came out of the court at Marylebone we faced what can only be described as a wall of venom spitting activists, mainly masked, some with dogs. Many of the women I was with were really brave and some sang loudly. My son was quite shaken, and he asked why they were masked. To him the case seemed clear cut - someone had attacked another and punched them to the floor.

Sisters Uncut obviously were there, along with their older sponsors - and the old blue haired one turned to us, looking at my child in disgust, and almost spat 'why have you brought a child with you - get back into your kitchen' - which really didnt seem a very feminist kind of thing to be saying for a supposed 'feminist' group.

When it's pointed out that no TWAW is meant to mean TW are literal women and no women's only space should be out of bounds to them, that's when they start to go "hang on....."

This is borne out in U.K. polling.

They've even linked to this thread and are making comments about how mumsnet should stick to baking cookies and potty training with no irony or insight into how misogynistic their comments are.

This is not feminism, it's sexism. This is what prejudice looks like.

I wonder if they look at cases like Michelle Winter‘s and think, yep not male violence against women and girls?

@BackToLurk

Maybe because most women and feminists are trans inclusive? Mumsnet feminist chat is an echo chamber really, not real life.

Where to start? Most people don't really think about being 'trans inclusive' or not. When they do the majority of people think of 'post-op' transwomen, who have been 'living as women' for years.

They think of 'Elaine' down the road who seems perfectly nice. There are a number of women, possibly a majority, who wouldn't be overly concerned if 'Elaine' joined the women's book club. They may say 'oh yes, Elaine is a woman', but they don't think 'Elaine' is female. They wouldn't imagine that 'Elaine' understands what it was like being a girl, or starting periods, or giving birth or approaching the menopause. Most of the time those things don't matter, but sometimes they do.

The men might think of 'Elaine' as a woman, but not 'for relationship purposes'. So not really.

Most people don't consider 'Summer', who last week was Shaun, to be a woman. That doesn't mean they think 'Summer' should be discriminated against, or ridiculed or not 'included' in the conversations where his sex is irrelevant, but they don't think he's a woman. Some women may feel protective of 'Summer'. 'Summer' seems vulnerable, but 'Summer' is still not a woman. When 'Summer' says 'she' has always felt like a woman, lots of women may listen. They may think 'that's nice', but they still don't want 'Summer' in refuges for vulnerable women, and they still want services to be able to exclude 'Summer' when appropriate.

In 'real life', people are polite, they avoid confrontation, but if you think that means that the majority think 'TWAW', then i'm unconvinced you take part in much 'real life'.

This with absolute bells on.

If you think people who say TWAW don’t feel under some kind of # bekind or societal pressure to do so, you’re deluded.

I have broached this topic with a very TWAW friend recently. She confided in me that she doesn’t think TWAW are women, ‘but I know they’re very vulnerable so I don’t want to make things worse for them’. Which is yet another gender stereotype - the women must be nurturing and put the men before their own feelings.

In response to the comment up thread about we take / should take personal responsibility when joining a group and gave as an example the Women's March. The Women's March was an artificial construction by sm "influencers" (one of whom was a man) who decided 3 women they thought would be suitable to lead a group!

And in fact now this has been said the parallel is very much the same an event, ie for Women's March the election of Trump leads to a very public outpouting of women's anger. So instead of letting women come together through their locality or online friends, some people decide we cant let women sort out for themselves what to do or what to say, we must take charge and direct them in "the right direction".

And in no time at all this "lead" group was going on about defunding the police, being trans inclusive and so on.

Not saying that the women who decided they should "lead" the RTS group (ie deciding that local groups in London should not be set up????????????) but it is remarkable how similar in no time at all what seemed to be a common anger in women is then syphoned off into the personal political agenda as a few non elected women.

It would have been so easy (or maybe facebook structure would make it harder) to have an area for women to share personal experiences, an area where women could discuss future street actions, an area where women could discuss lobbying etc., and more important than anything an area where women could discuss how to stop men's violence.

Now what is happening is that even what everyone accepts is a valid position cant be shared if the person sharing it is a gender critical feminist. And it may only be one or two people but they are dominating the direction of the narrative.

Genuinely asking what did the women who are doing this thinking they were going to achieve. That women who have got so shaken up by events would just sit there passively and meekly say, please do tell me what to say and do. As if!

Not only that is the huge gap in their knowledge of existing work being done by women / women's groups. Talk about re-inventing the wheel.

As said elsewhere it is almost as though some MRAs thought how can we get this anger about men's violence by dissapapted, and they created THE RTS group.

Great points stumbledin. Definitely think we have to be cautious of movements that spring up online and do some research before getting involved, donating money or going to a march/vigil/demonstration.

Like many I've been kicked out of the Facebook group, but in a way I think it's a good thing. Lurkers can see what happens when you talk about women and come find us all here speaking relatively freely as long as we are careful with our words. (See talk guidelines.)

Lurkers here feel free to read around this board. Lots of us have been here for years.

Any trolls stopping by, we have heard it all before, from the 'your science is outdated', to the 'I have a nice trans friend' to the Be Kind arguments. If you want to have a go be my guest but it's not our first rodeo.

I think they must be worried they have removed the post that give the link to this thread!

And a thread where someone was really politely asking why it wasn't possible to support gender critical feminists and trans women. The response seemed to be only totally submission will do.

Someone has just posted a link to a online free event called “MEN SPEAK OUT AGAINST VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN”

It says the following which I thought looked positive:-
“This is an event that provides space for men to challenge male violence against women and girls, supported by the violence against women and girls sector, activists, and academics”

Come on; I thought they were all coming here to tell us some unpalatable home truths? I got my hopes up and everything :(

Do better, Facebook.

They're not?