Is there any such thing as gender identity?

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Here is an article by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT:
What is gender identity?

Byrne concludes, in part, as follows:
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria .'

In fact, it seems, there just is no such thing as gender identity in the way trans ideologues intend. Some, noticing lack of anything like it in themselves, nevertheless allow that others may nevertheless suffer from its presence. I think this mistaken, factually and strategically.

The existence of gender identity is foundational for much trans ideology. Its importance can be deduced from its inclusion in Humpty Dumpty’s Stonewall's glossary entry on transphobia, 'including denying ... gender identity ', as part of orthodox trans dogma.

The foundations of trans ideology are built on the quicksand of gender identity. Pointing out the shaky nature of these foundations cannot but assist in demolishing the whole edifice of this ideology before it does any more harm to women, children, and wider society in general.

Of course those who believe in gender identity should not be discriminated against or disadvantaged in any way because of such belief, any more than should believers in guardian angels or invisible human auras. It does not follow that such beliefs themselves should be given any credence. Nor, a fortiori , does it follow that social policy or law should be based on any such beliefs.

There is no such thing as gender identity.

Or, perhaps science progresses is there now some way of detecting its presence, contrary to Alex Byrne's assertion?

Plenty of people don’t have gendered names.

The majority of people in this country have gendered names. Also, this is only one of a large number of factors.

People who use pronouns in your presence are very rude

Really? That’s not a thing I’m aware of.

Really? You never wear clothes just because they fit regardless of the label?
I can’t remember any occasion when I’ve bought an article of clothing (other than maybe a scarf or socks) which wasn’t from the women’s section of a shop

And men shouldn’t do this because...?

I’m obviously not expressing any kind of value judgement about whether anyone should or shouldn’t shave any of their body hair. I’m merely observing that I was socialised into believing that in order to be feminine/sexy/not gross I needed to shave my armpits and legs, and this has to an extent become internalised. I am currently rebelling against this insofar as I haven’t shaved my legs for several months and they are immensely hairy. But to be honest, I would probably be too self conscious to go out with my legs bare in public in their current state. I think the majority of women probably feel the same, and yet the majority of men are quite happy to go around with shorts on and legs unshaved. This is one small example of how pervasive gender norms are

I am sorry. You're going to have to flaot that one passed me again. What is it generally understood to be?

I think most people would probably say a woman has a uterus, vagina, breasts and XX chromosomes while a man has a penis, scrotum and XY chromosomes. If you told them it was possible for a person to be born with a vagina and uterus and XY chromosomes and then asked them what that person’s sex is you’d probably get a range of answers

'Is there any such thing as an absence of gender identity? Are people who claim not to have one merely deluded? How can we know? Should we take their word for it?'

That's not how it works.

You start with a hypothesis, you look for proof.

If things point towards it being likely but not proven categorically, it becomes a working theory (evolution is an example).

Any number of things could be true. It's up to the people who have confidence in their hypothesis to prove it, or have enough evidence to show that while not categorically proven, it is the best possible explanation for the phenomenon/ observation under discussion.

There has not been nearly enough genuine research into gender ID feelings in people who are not trans. The concept of internal gender ID comes from trans people who by definition have this sense. As far as I'm aware there has been no real study into what proportion of the rest of the population has this sense. That is a massive gap.

I don't. When I've asked others they don't either.

The assumption that most people have a strongly held internal sense of their gender ID is just that. An assumption by those who do.

It's an unsatisfactory approach.

All of this is beside the point.

The vast vast vast majority of trans people do not have DSDs. They are standard functional males or females.

Sex specific stuff is there because of bodies.

I can't even begin to think why separation on internal ID would be need necessary.

And it raises more questions than it answers.

Where do non binary etc people go? They aren't male nor are they female.

If TMAM then they should go into male only places because as men they should no way use facilities for women.

Yes lots of trans men continue using female facilities. And I believe (though may be out of date) that in England and Wales there has not been a trans man incarcerated in a male prison.

And quite right too.

But if trans people are male/female by identity then it's not right to put them with women is it. A beach of the human rights of those women.

Maybe it's the kind of thing you're only of when there's a problem. Like, for example you only appreciate clear nasal passages when you've had a cold. Or your appendix. Or people who live in the dominant culture who claim to be culture-free.

Yes I've heard that suggested before.

That women who say they don't have an internal gender ID are so at home with it they don't notice it.

AKA they don't know their own minds. Women have been told that forever. That others (men) understand the motivations of women better than women themselves do.

I can't get on board with that argument TBH.

It also overlooks the fact that an awful lot of girls and women struggle to feel comfy in their bodies

And that loads of women and girls feel deeply uncomfortable in their gender role from a young age as well.

AKA they don't know their own minds.

Nobody knows their own minds. For instance, when you recognize somebody, how did you do it? Or if you want to eat a particular food, why do you? A lot of our mental processes are hidden from us.

The people I've come across who claim to have no cultural identity are all men, all comfy in their majority culture. That's what made me think of it. As a possibility.

an awful lot of girls and women struggle to feel comfy in their bodies

True.

Well I know I have no spiritual side and I know I have no internal sense of gender ID.

I was a feminist before I knew the word because I feel like a person and people kept seeing I was a girl and treating me accordingly. And it jarred and I hated it.

So I don't think it's your place to tell me at nearly 50 that I don't know my own mind.

I think you're saying that the idea of gender identity is itself offensive? It's not as if we chose to be women by identifying that way. It was imposed on us. I agree, that's also my perspective.

But just as you and I think of "knowing your own mind" in completely different ways, maybe there's another way of thinking about gender identity that we don't understand because we've never experienced it. Or maybe there isn't, who knows.

Don't worry, the last thing I expect is to change someone's mind online. I'd be disconcerted if that ever happened.

maybe there's another way of thinking about gender identity that we don't understand because we've never experienced it.

What do you think a gender identity is?

What do you think a gender identity is?

No idea, really. People talk about identity a lot though. National identity, cultural identity, racial identity. My own experience is that those identities are also imposed on me by the social context rather than something I've assumed myself.

But maybe there are people who take more personal control over these processes. Americans who claim to be Mexican, for example, despite never having been there. They insist that people see them and treat them as they want be seen. Taking into account the stereotypes and assumptions existing in people's minds, presumably. That's where I get a bit lost. How to ensure that other people understand the concept of Mexican/woman or whatever you're trying to portray yourself as? What if they see Mexicans only as residents or citizens of Mexico?

Public service announcement: Beliefs absolutely deserve to be mocked. People need protection. Beliefs do not.

It seems many in the West have forgotten this concept. Ah I remember the golden days of Atheism on the internet, when it actually challenged and dissected and mocked religious beliefs. Nowadays so called atheists shrink away from gender theocracy or actively worship it. Pretty pathetic when you think about it.

I don't usually shave my legs
I do have quite a few articles of clothing from the men's section ( fit and style depending)
I still know I am a woman and reject have gendered assumptions made about me because of my sex. There are places that have lost sales as a result

I did have extreme body hatred and gender hatred ( caused by the gender assumptions forced on me) when younger and I would say a gender identity is what you acquire in such a situation

Had to bite my tongue about the census when my mam on the gender identity question said " well women can have babies and that's the end of it"

As far as I'm aware there has been no real study into what proportion of the rest of the population has this sense... The assumption that most people have a strongly held internal sense of their gender ID is just that. An assumption by those who do.

I’m equally unconvinced by non-trans people who do claim to have an internal sense of their gender. I have friends who “just know” they are women (and invoke that ridiculous “if I woke up in a man’s body...” justification) but I think they are really misattributing their decades’ worth of memories of actually being female.

I could imagine people who feel very feminine /traditional feeling , like their sense of them is more aligned than average so they notice that?

Ask the question "Are you a woman?" If the answer is yes, then that's your gender identity, by definition. It's similar with other gender identities.

It doesn't matter to someone determining your gender identity whether you believe gender identity exists in order for you it to be recognised. If you say "I'm a woman, but I don't have a gender identity," the definition doesn't care. The first is a statement of your gender identity, the second a statement that you don't think gender identity doesn't exist. There are non-binary and agender people, in the same way that there a non-religious people, but that's not the same as making a statement "I don't think religion exists."

I am simply stating this as a definition, not attempting to defend its usefulness as a concept in this thread.

Sorry:

"don't think gender identity doesn't exists"
should be
"don't think gender identity exists"

If the answer is yes, then that's your gender identity, by definition.

By whose definition? If you don't believe in gender identity, then calling yourself a woman is not an expression of gender identity, but of something else. Your adultness, femaleness and humanness, for example.

If the answer is yes, then that's your gender identity, by definition. It's similar with other gender identities.

Maybe, but even if that was a "gender identity" a gender-critical person saying they're a "woman" is clearly not the same gender identity as that of a male saying they're a "woman".

It's the same word being used for two totally different definitions. The first person is saying it because they're female. The second person is saying - well, we don't know what they're saying.

Someone who eats meat can call themselves a "vegan" and that might be their "food identity", but it's clearly not the same "food identity" as someone who doesn't eat meat, is it?

And I think vegans could be rightfully irked if told that someone who ate meat and called themselves "vegan" had the same "food identity" as them, and should be treated as the same group. ("Why won't you eat burger - those vegans eat burgers. Burger-exclusive bigotry!")

So what’s the word for those of us who have found our life experience and therefore “identity” is profoundly shaped by the material fact of being a female human being?

And who have nothing aside from our species in common with male human beings who “identify as” women?

Since we’re apparently not allowed a word to describe ourselves. I’m going to keep calling myself a woman, to honour my own history and my own body.

That is not a “gender identity”. I know what gender identity is by observing males who assert one. I don’t have that and I deeply resent any implication that I do.

Ask the question "Are you a woman?" If the answer is yes, then that's your gender identity, by definition. It's similar with other gender identities.

But this is entirely useless as a definition as it doesn't exist as an external reality at all. What do I, as a woman, have in common with a male who says "I am a woman"? It is not a category that can meaningfully contain us both.

@dadjoke What a strange thing to say.

The definition of woman is not human with a feminine gender identity, it is adult human female.
If it were human with a feminine identity, then I am not a woman and at some point in my 40 years on earth someone has changed the definition without my consent.
Woman has always meant female sex to me, not a gender, not feminine, and not female gender identity, not "has to like certain things and behave certain ways". Just descriptive of the cunty group and their shared biological reality.

Perhaps other people have always felt that woman describes the socially constructed aspects of an ideal and stereotypical female and we just never knew, but I doubt it, since woman now includes anyone female, unless they specifically identify across or out and anyone who identifies in. So it includes many who don't identify with gender.

Unless someone is suggesting I am not a woman because I dont identify with gender or should be forced to identify with gender.

Much more likely the definition has been slyly and deliberately queered. Post modern queer theory explicitly states that this is its aim.

Personal Identity comes from a similar root to identify. To identify with. I may be a doctor or a miner, but doctor or miner is not my identity unless I identify with my profession/job. Many people do, they construct themselves value and meaning and sense of self out of that identification. So it is a thing for some people.

It's similar with other gender identities

And yet we spend aeons debating what it is to be a woman and exactly no time at all debating what it is to be a man.

Weird, that.

Your second paragraph doesn’t make any sense. You’re basically saying that when a person says “I don’t have a soul”, they’re saying religion doesn’t exist. This doesn’t follow at all. I don’t believe I have a soul, but I honestly couldn’t give a marmalade sandwich if everyone else believes they do. They are free to, I won’t stop them. I don’t have a gender identity and it’s bonkers that you’re telling me that I do, when your aim in even engaging with this debate is presumably to defend people’s rights to define and name their own gender identity!

You are in a complete logical tangle. And as a PP said, you’re suggesting that women don’t know our own minds, which typically doesn’t go over well in feminism. Believe you have a gender identity all you want, but you can’t compel me, and you certainly can’t do it using shoddy logic.