Is there any such thing as gender identity?

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Here is an article by Alex Byrne, Professor of Philosophy at MIT:
What is gender identity?

Byrne concludes, in part, as follows:
' If there is some kind of “gender identity” that is universal in humans, and which causes dysphoria when mismatched with sex, it remains elusive. No one has yet found a way of detecting its presence, and verifying that it is causally responsible for dysphoria .'

In fact, it seems, there just is no such thing as gender identity in the way trans ideologues intend. Some, noticing lack of anything like it in themselves, nevertheless allow that others may nevertheless suffer from its presence. I think this mistaken, factually and strategically.

The existence of gender identity is foundational for much trans ideology. Its importance can be deduced from its inclusion in Humpty Dumpty’s Stonewall's glossary entry on transphobia, 'including denying ... gender identity ', as part of orthodox trans dogma.

The foundations of trans ideology are built on the quicksand of gender identity. Pointing out the shaky nature of these foundations cannot but assist in demolishing the whole edifice of this ideology before it does any more harm to women, children, and wider society in general.

Of course those who believe in gender identity should not be discriminated against or disadvantaged in any way because of such belief, any more than should believers in guardian angels or invisible human auras. It does not follow that such beliefs themselves should be given any credence. Nor, a fortiori , does it follow that social policy or law should be based on any such beliefs.

There is no such thing as gender identity.

Or, perhaps science progresses is there now some way of detecting its presence, contrary to Alex Byrne's assertion?

So if those gene variants (there was no control group) are a true indicator, what of the transpeople without those indicators? Are they a different type of trans person?

Should this be used to assess who is and who isn’t ?

@Shizuku

"Has anyone with dementia forgotten their gender identity? Yes. Although more studies are needed, there is evidence that trans people with dementia do seem to forget their 'innate' gender identity."

The paper says it's completely anecdotal. So funny how you will take apart hundreds of papers that rely on actual scientifically analysed observations, and then champion a paper that speculates what might happen if some anecdotes were true.

Confirmation bias much?

You should take this up with the authors of this paper, which was used to produce a guide for one of the health boards in Wales about supporting transgender people with dementia.

www.researchgate.net/publication/309155550_Transgender_Mental_Health_and_Older_People_An_Appreciative_Approach_Towards_Working_Together

A major focus of transitioning is the retention of identity whilst changing gender. Likewise, the focus of those who care for people with dementia should be to support the individual to maintain their identity in the face of declining cognitive and functional abilities. The groups considered the implications of dementia for a transgender individual; “What if I forget who I have become and think I am who I used to be?”

At least two of the authors of this paper are transgender and are featured in the guide, which says:

A person may not recall their current gender. They may see themselves as being pre-transition resulting in heightened disorientation and anxiety. They may be surprised to see the physical changes that have occurred

www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/documents/861/Supporting%20Me%20Transgender%20%20Dementia%20-%20final.pdf

@notwatchingrugby

But tobacco companies did lie and I think oil companies are also doing so ?

My point exactly.

when the very definition of many DSDs that they involve having sexual characteristics of both male and female.

This is 100% false.

implies that you could resolve all DSDs to either male or female, when the very definition of many DSDs that they involve having sexual characteristics of both male and female.

Your sentence describes a binary - male and female. There is no third sex.

Has this been posted here yet? I just discovered it on twitter.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763421000804

twitter.com/lise_eliot/status/1373315409475072001?s=21

This is the summary given by one of the authors.

Men have bigger bodies and average 11% larger brains. But other M/F differences are a PRODUCT OF SIZE, NOT SEX.

Also, has this been posted? Apologies if it has. Mind you it is a useful reminder for anyone who hasn’t rtft.

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/09/71296/?fbclid=IwAR1qhY36S81bxLIL-Gm04MemcwA8R0OBpG5iCy_CrUM6tGttrO98Un-WLTE

This is an article about it but the article has links to follow.

A major correction has been issued by the American Journal of Psychiatry. The authors and editors of an October 2019 study, titled “Reduction in mental health treatment utilization among transgender individuals after gender-affirming surgeries: a total population study,” have retracted its primary conclusion.

Sorry. Forgot this section

Letters to the editor by twelve authors, including ourselves, led to a reanalysis of the data and a corrected conclusion stating that in fact the data showed no improvement after surgical treatment. The following is the background to our published letter and a summary of points of the critical analysis of the study.

I will observe one thing about gender identity.

I know nothing about the sex of most of the posters on MN, but there is something very stereotypically male about telling posters on a site that largely focuses on pregnancy and childbirth that sex is an inconsequential irrelevance.

Having said that I know of posters who are definitely female who don’t hesitate to post forthright and unpopular views so 🤷

If sex and gender identity are separate then what is the relevance of DSDs to trans?

The answer to my question above was revealing. That Father Ted image of Dreams vs Reality is needed.

Gonads are a sex characteristic. Yes.
Gender identity is a sex characteristic. No, even if it exists, it is not a sex characteristic.
They are different sex characteristics. No
DSDs often involve a combination of sex characteristics that aren't usually found together like XY chromosomes with a vagina. Yes. NHS link for lurkers www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/
Similarly, a trans woman typically has reproductive organs typically seen in men Not typically, always. A person can only be a transwoman if they are male sex.
But a gender identity typically seen in women. If gender identity is real

@30PercentRecycled

If sex and gender identity are separate then what is the relevance of DSDs to trans?

The answer to my question above was revealing. That Father Ted image of Dreams vs Reality is needed.

Gonads are a sex characteristic. Yes.
Gender identity is a sex characteristic. No, even if it exists, it is not a sex characteristic.
They are different sex characteristics. No
DSDs often involve a combination of sex characteristics that aren't usually found together like XY chromosomes with a vagina. Yes. NHS link for lurkers www.nhs.uk/conditions/differences-in-sex-development/
Similarly, a trans woman typically has reproductive organs typically seen in men Not typically, always. A person can only be a transwoman if they are male sex.
But a gender identity typically seen in women. If gender identity is real

Yes. It was word salad in a very hearty serving.

Thanks for translating.

Gender identity is a sex characteristic.

Again, you need a lot of chutzpah to suggest this on a site largely dealing with the idea that some humans might have to push another human out of their vagina.

Pharmaceutical companies in America are entirely philanthropic and would never fund research which 'came to a conclusion' that made them massive amounts of profit at the expense of peoples health.

Didn't Ben Goldacre write a whole book on the topic of dubious research in the pharma industry? I guess we should tell him he's a nutty tin foil hat wearer.

You don’t need to be a conspiracy theorist to notice that American healthcare requires more regulation and that prescriptions are sometimes driven by business interests.

Just look at the Opioid crisis.

Honestly I don’t think this would ever be comparable to the Oxycontin scandal, but I really wouldn’t be looking to the US for ethical guidance.

If prescribing in the US were impartial then they wouldn't advertise prescription drugs on TV. Never mind regulation, the pharmaceutical companies would realise it didn't affect sales and would spend their money elsewhere. That is clearly not what happens.

Delving into personal anecdata. I have family members in their late fifties living in the US. They are on a cocktail of drugs for heart health and other things. They talk about their daily "meds" as if it is normal and good. Anyone with eyes can see that they needed to be prescribed weight loss, exercise and vegetables.

American healthcare requires more regulation

Just to be clear, my meaning here is that it isn’t sufficiently regulated.

Hang on, aren’t sex characteristics decided by the chromosomes an individual has? One stems from the other, they don’t coexist separately?

@Wondermule

Hang on, aren’t sex characteristics decided by the chromosomes an individual has? One stems from the other, they don’t coexist separately?

Sometimes (as with every other part of development - congenital heart conditions, cystic fibrosis) there is a fault with e.g. the SRY gene and it doesn’t function correctly. This results in specific developmental conditions so somebody can be phenotypically female and have male chromosomes.

This has nothing to with the gender identities of people who do not have a DSD.

I see @merrymouse

But all that proves is that some people have DSD?

My two cents. While I don’t think gender identity exists, it doesn’t matter. What matters is whether people believe it exists.

I don’t believe in the existence of gods, but when certain religious people argue for certain behavior or rights (eg to discriminate against homosexuals), we don’t argue whether their god exists or otherwise. We look at their claims and consider it against other rights to see if there is a clash.

Same with gender identity IMO

@Seldon

My two cents. While I don’t think gender identity exists, it doesn’t matter. What matters is whether people believe it exists.

I don’t believe in the existence of gods, but when certain religious people argue for certain behavior or rights (eg to discriminate against homosexuals), we don’t argue whether their god exists or otherwise. We look at their claims and consider it against other rights to see if there is a clash.

Same with gender identity IMO

Absolutely but the current state of play is that people who don’t believe in it are being forced to acknowledge it. That’s why it’s important to cling on to our sanity by remember there is zero scientific evidence of ‘gender’ and that it is a man made construct which an individual should not be forced to believe in or acknowledge.

it doesn’t matter

Except when it gets prioritized over sex. Except when women’s single sex spaces are considered open to those who identify as women but are male. Except when children and teens are led to believe that with hormones and surgery they can become the other sex. Except when sex balanced boards and panels become ‘gender’ balanced and females once again are represented by males and sometimes males with a different agenda than advocating for females and their needs due to their female biology.

Except many other instances where gender identity is considered more important than sex.

Conclusion: We identified genetic variants in 20 genes that may play a role in transgender identity.

GWAS studies always come up with something, it’s built in to the design that spurious correlations will be uncovered. You need the same correlations to be uncovered in multiple studies before you can claim a trait is genetically linked.

However I don’t doubt that there may be some non-spurious genetic correlations with identifying as trans. Doesn’t mean that gender identity is real. I’d like to know how the relevant genes are linked to autism and homosexuality.