Why AREN’T men more afraid?

[Lessthanaballpark]

In all the discussion around Sarah Everard and women’s safety, it keeps coming up that men are statistically more likely to be victims of violence ( the perps being men obvs)

Yet, why then aren’t men more afraid? I can’t remember seeing much in the news about male on male violence.

Is that because it’s easier to feel sympathy for women?

And why aren’t men afraid?

Is it because they think they have a fighting chance against any perps?

Is it because they are not targeted for being men?

Is it because the violence towards women is more sexual?

I’d genuinely like to know what everyone thinks, because it seems to me that they should be more scared than they are.

ParadiseIsland
Well that's the point of this thread - why aren't they worried, or wondering those things?
It's naive to think these things only happen in alcohol situations, or that it's only muggings, and can easily be avoided.

I think it's because they don't feel the threat in the same way. My DH had somone pull a knife on him demanding money late at night on an empty train platform in London. He wasn't scared at all, just pissed off. He told the guy to fuck off and walked away. I asked if he was scared and he said why would he be, he's 6ft4 and knows how to handle himself.

I think physicality has a part to play.

I've not had much public hassle and I do think the fact I'm taller than the average man has had a part in that.

For a different perspective; could it be to do with the fact we are continually told that we are in greater risk/men are dangerous/the streets aren't safe for us/night time is only "safe" for men. Everytime a murder victim happens to be a girl or woman, this narrative is emphasised even more. In more recent times at least, men are now constantly told they are privileged and have nothing to fear and that the streets basically belong to them.

I would imagine for many parts of cities, it isn't safe for pretty much anyone to go out alone at night. Even if you're a man with muscles you're still going to end up badly hurt or dead if you are attacked by a gang of thugs who are drunk/bored and want trouble, or want to rob someone etc.

@JurgenKloppsCat

Tabula, it wasn't just football though. We could head to another city for a weekend away and run into problems totally unrelated. I know women have the whole 'look how she was dressed' thing, and it's inexcusable. But you can be a man out for a nice evening, and run into some dickhead who doesn't like your accent - which is even harder to change than your clothing when you need to order drinks. And if you are a young bloke out with a group of friends in a city that isn't your own, the attitude of some of the local bouncers, and police, might surprise you. You aren't always welcomed with open arms.

I’m not disputing it, I have a DP and a DS in his twenties...

I’m not saying btw that men shouldn’t be scared or that horrible things don’t happen to them.

But for instance if you’re going on a localish night out with friends, nowhere particularly rough, there’s no football, rugby or whatever on to complicate it, no fights break out anywhere you are and you’ve prebooked a taxi to pick you up and take you home.

You will have I think a very different night to a woman in the same places. IME she’ll have arranged to meet friends beforehand because she doesn’t want to be the first one there and alone. Taxis will not have been booked to go on the cheapest or most convenient route, they’ll be done so the last drop is 2 people. They’ll have gone pretty much everywhere in at least pairs, bar, toilet, out for a cigarette and also that no-one is left sitting alone, they’ll have made sure never to leave their drink on a table if they’re not actually looking at it. They’ll check in with each other constantly while moving between the bar, toilet, dance floor whatever and go looking for someone if they don’t know where they are or if they do, but they’ve been gone longer than a few minutes.

And while doing all that... they definitely will have been groped at the bar, probably multiple times, they’ll have had men try to herd them off away from their friends at various points in the night.

They’ll have had men harassing them about not dancing if they’re chatting to friends, occasionally even trying to actually manhandle them on to the dance floor. They’ll have been sworn at, for fairly politely refusing to dance or making it obvious they don’t want to talk to the man who is a complete stranger... very often had their sexuality questioned, because of course the only way they could not be interested is if they are in fact lesbians. They may even have been sworn out for not responding to a shouted compliment correctly... actual example is, a man shouting - you’re gorgeous, the woman responding I know and being called a fucking cunt.

That’s a fairly normal night out, nothing horrible had happened, nobody is horrified by any of that stuff because it’s just how it always is and all the safety precautions aren’t discussed in anyway... again, they’re just normal.

I think when that’s your starting point for a good night... that’s a huge reason why men and women perceive the risk of attacks differently.

Oh and I don’t know how much of that you might do or not, but the men I’ve asked definitely don’t worry about things like going to the toilet alone somewhere like a fairly ok club.

They are not likely to encounter violence in the bus, walking down the street or waiting at a bus stop.

There was an awful case a few years ago of a couple on a bus in London. As I recall, some youths were throwing chips at the woman, and the guy protested. When the couple got off the bus, the youths followed them, attacked the guy and put his eyes out.

When the couple got off the bus, the youths followed them, attacked the guy and put his eyes out.

That's incomprehensible. It reminds me of the Delhi bus rape where they raped her (and ultimately murdered her) and beat her boyfriend up so badly.

When I read things like that I think "What the fuck is wrong with men" but then I remind myself that it's not the majority, but a small minority that gets too much attention.

Getting punched in the face is horrible but it rarely changes your life forever. Being raped or targeted for sexual violence is entirely different.

I think this gets it too.

Even the men I know who are worried, they're worried about being mugged or jumped, they think they might take a kicking or someone might steal their wallet and phone, they even know they could be left for dead. But none of them fear being violated, I think that generally is a uniquely female fear. And for some women is a greater fear than death without violation.

The reaction to these crimes also feeds into this fear. If a man comes home having taken a beating he is looked after, never blamed. If a woman comes home having been sexually assaulted or raped there's always the questions, and there's always some idea that she's been 'tainted' aswell. Sexual crimes are somehow much more personal than violent ones.

Sometimes I wonder if the reason men don't speak up is because they cannot "other" themselves.

Women can point to an out-group and identify them as the problem. Black people who have suffered racism can do the same.

The only time men really outrage on behalf of women is when the perpetrators are Muslim men. They can be othered. White men can then point to the characteristics of another group and say "it's them, not us".

I feel depressed about the possibility of change. I think change will only come when we convince men that it benefits them to combat male violence but that at the same time it is not men that are the problem. It's impossible!

[trigger warning]

If a woman comes home having been sexually assaulted or raped there's always the questions, and there's always some idea that she's been 'tainted' aswell. Sexual crimes are somehow much more personal than violent ones.

Oh yes that is so true. A friend "raped" me when I was in my twenties that I would NEVER tell my dad about because a) it's embarrassing and b) I'm afraid he'd tell me off for getting myself into that situation. However, if I had been mugged or punched I wouldn't have any problem telling him.

@Lessthanaballpark

Sometimes I wonder if the reason men don't speak up is because they cannot "other" themselves.

Women can point to an out-group and identify them as the problem. Black people who have suffered racism can do the same.

The only time men really outrage on behalf of women is when the perpetrators are Muslim men. They can be othered. White men can then point to the characteristics of another group and say "it's them, not us".

I feel depressed about the possibility of change. I think change will only come when we convince men that it benefits them to combat male violence but that at the same time it is not men that are the problem. It's impossible!

I'm not sure this is true. An example - I followed a vlog of an ex-convict. He posts about life in prison, and how the system operates for prisoners. This guy was in for something fairly serious. He found himself sharing a cell with a guy he struck up a decent friendship with. Then it became common knowledge that this cell mate was in for rape. Prison politics dictates that in situations like this, you have to stab this rapist. If you don't, someone else will - and also stab you for not doing your duty. You are deemed to be somehow complicit in this guy's crime.

I have no reason to disbelieve this guy's vlog. It seems that gangsters, violent thugs, murderers, armed robbers and the like see themselves as morally superior to those guilty of sexual crimes. I find it amazing that someone who has taken one or more lives might look down on a rapist, might take some moral high ground. It also suggests that even men with a fucked up moral system finds rape particularly abhorrent. And not least, it seems that men have no issue in 'othering' other men, even within particularly violent sub-cultures.

Yes the reluctance to tell is interesting.

I’m prepared to bet a pretty penny that half of those men advertising their superiority over prison rapists by stabbing them have done the same thing and never got caught.

I’m prepared to bet a pretty penny that half of those men advertising their superiority over prison rapists by stabbing them have done the same thing and never got caught.

Yes, or that looking down on sexual offenders is more part of establishing themselves at the top of a hierarchy than any respect for women.

I mean, where are these men on the outside?

Prison politics dictates that in situations like this, you have to stab this rapist. If you don't, someone else will - and also stab you for not doing your duty. You are deemed to be somehow complicit in this guy's crime.

But you know, can we for a moment just meditate on how totally fucked up this "tradition"is? At its darkest, male culture is about hierarchy and proving yourself to be tough enough to display no empathy. Beta men are at the bottom and women are just collateral damage.

@Midlifemusings

What makes you think they aren't afraid?

I was just reading a reddit thread with hundreds of men talking about the fear they feel about walking alone at night but most said they would never voice it as they would be perceived as weak. that men are expected to be strong and to face danger head on and to even jump in and protect others. They are expected to have a fight response in the face of fear and to not show their fear.

I think there’s truth in this.

I do feel worries when our alone. Groups of men are intimidating, and I’ve been assaulted before so I can be wary. I’m not built like a fighter and I wouldn’t fare well so try to avoid situations where it might kick off.

I’ve had girlfriends joke they’d be more use than me in a fight, and whilst that might be right, it’s not generally acceptable to sau

@DIshedUp

I think a lot of women are afraid of sexual assault and rape actually more than violence. I'm not so afraid a random man will kill me more that he will rape me, although I know the risk of the former does exist there is the added risk I guess of the latter. That obviously doesn't happen as much to men

But also I think a lot of men are afraid but they won't admit it, or allow themselves to be. Possibly they think they could fight back?

As well I think women get years of minor aggressions from men that result in more fear. I've had many, generally minor, incidents from men using their size to intimate me, many years of men touching your arsenal in clubs or brushing their hand on you back etc that lead to a general weariness of men. Men havent probably had that as much.

I would much prefer to be mugged, punched, kicked and beaten than raped. There's no question of it. I'm not going to pretend it wouldn't be horrifically traumatic to be seriously assaulted by a stranger when I'm minding my own business, but I know the additional threat of sexual violence is what terrifies me.

'
I was just reading a reddit thread with hundreds of men talking about the fear they feel about walking alone at night but most said they would never voice it as they would be perceived as weak. that men are expected to be strong and to face danger head on and to even jump in and protect others'

If women feel trepidation they make plans. They make sure they have money for a cab. They arrange to stay at a friend's house. They leave early while there's still lots of people about. That sort of thing.

Men who are afraid can do this as well. Nothing stopping them.

And I don't think anyone expects men to jump in do they? We are told they are worried it might escalate. Don't think I've ever had a man jump in.

I've walked in to situations to help both men and women. That's my personality. Some men will do that too. It's to do with recklessness and a certain lessened self preservation instinct. Women and men both do this.

The idea that a man might worry about walking home alone because he might see a woman being attacked and feel he has to do something is a bit... ? All he has to do is call the police. If he's feeling very brave, shout I've called the police. And extra brave. Rush in.

I would rush in but like I say that's a personality thing not a male female thing.

If a man does say he feels unsafe he can be told
a) You are unmanly
b) Yes, but it's not as bad as it is for women, so you shouldn't be complaining. And on balance it's not.
But I feel like in some ways this is reinforcing the gender stereotypes. Yes, women fear being raped or sexually assaulted by a stranger much more than men do - because the chances of it happening are much higher for us. But then whatever those chances are both sexes compare against the other. So it becomes a thing that happens to us but not them. Because that's what humans do, they constantly compare.

But I do think that women also have a specific set of fears and dangers that it's important men try to understand.

This thread has been very interesting and given me a lot to think about.

@tabulahrasa

“One of the things I think is missing from the discussion around this is the area in which you live. It's a bit galling to hear wealthy, middle class people say "these incidents are so rare" “

I was just about to say - I do walk places alone, isolated places in daytime to walk the dog and I’ll happily walk to and from places at night.

But that’s because I live in a small town, it’s not middle class, lol, it’s just small - so, not a huge risk.

And proper isolated countryside doesn’t bother me at all, there’s no-one there!!!

But I might avoid secluded places in nearby cities after dark, I do avoid things like shortcuts in alleyways in cities as well - places with people, but no-one could see if something happened.

no-ones hanging about up mountains or fields in the middle of nowhere waiting 3 days for one potential victim to go past.

I totally agree with this. I've lived in dodgy areas of London and other big cities, in smaller cities, and now semi-rural.

In the cities, harassment was routine. I run, and most weeks there would be an incident of harassment while I was out running or cycling. Sometimes more than that, being followed etc. When I was raped by a stranger, that was when I lived in a city.

I've now lived semi rurally (village in a national park) for the past 2 and a bit years, and it's eye opening. Of all the runs I've done here, not a single one has involved harassment. Not one. My fear levels have dropped, yes I'm still wary and stay alert, but it's like apples and oranges.

Regarding the female posters who say that they feel they are strong and fit enough to have a chance of fighting off a male attacker..... I can only assume they've never tried. I'm a tall, fit woman, and I do a sport that involves upper body strength, but the strength differential between men and women is HUGE. I know there is no way I could fight off a determined man, or even make a good attempt. Despite being a runner, the average man could also outsprint me if I tried to get away. My lack of testosterone and muscle mass means it would be no contest.

The sexual element is also different between men and women. I've been mugged, but don't fear mugging - I fear being raped again. The male poster ( for you) upthread who described the horrific impact of rape was spot on. It's nothing like being punched.

I think men are less likely to be approached and harassed. Young women develop a mentality of watching out for danger while young men don't. I remember, as a young women, regularly having to extricate myself from unpleasant situations even in the middle of the day, on a normal town high street or on public transport, or other innocuous places. Then when I walked down the street with male friends they were so obviously oblivious to the dangers I could see. I tried to tell a couple of them about it. They wouldn't believe me and thought I was too judgemental of people.

Now I'm older, I'm less vigilant because I'm less likely to be harassed. Now I have more of an understanding of what it's like to be a man, able to walk about without attracting unpleasant attention. I feel more human somehow.

The men don't have to say they're afraid though. I agree that would not be received well. But they can do the things that many women do. Cabs, leave early etc. Nothing stopping them.

The thing about they can't ask someone to walk them home. Well that's not a good move for women either! If a woman walks her home how does that woman get home? And a bloke walking you home is a poor choice- many women attacked by men 'looking after' them.

I also think the middle class thing that I keep seeing is a bit odd.

Do middle class girls not walk to school, do middle class teens not go to the pub, to clubs?

I don't get that bit so would be interested to hear more.

For sure women who have other features are at higher risk, but this magic that means creepy men stay away from MC schoolgirls- how does that work?

I've seen it a lot so must be missing something.

And the overwhelming response on mn is that it is very common. So again not sure where this perception comes from.

I do agree that where you live has a lot to do with it though.