Why AREN’T men more afraid?

[Lessthanaballpark]

In all the discussion around Sarah Everard and women’s safety, it keeps coming up that men are statistically more likely to be victims of violence ( the perps being men obvs)

Yet, why then aren’t men more afraid? I can’t remember seeing much in the news about male on male violence.

Is that because it’s easier to feel sympathy for women?

And why aren’t men afraid?

Is it because they think they have a fighting chance against any perps?

Is it because they are not targeted for being men?

Is it because the violence towards women is more sexual?

I’d genuinely like to know what everyone thinks, because it seems to me that they should be more scared than they are.

Essentially, I would be less worried being out at night if the risk was that someone the same size as me might give me a black eye rather than someone who could quite conceivably weigh double what I do, rapes or murders me.

But that's minimising it a bit. There have been cctv footage of single men attacked in my town, and it's not a punch to the face and a black eye, it's punching to the floor and kicking and stamping on their heads.
Those who survive are very lucky.
A man in his 70s, an eccentric who made his own clothes was following by some men and knocked the the floor and kicked about. He died, and he'd done nothing wrong apart from being a bit odd looking.

“The original comment comes across as 'oh, it's only a bit of a beating'. Perhaps that's just my interpretation.”

I honestly think it might be as I definitely didn’t interpret it like that - but then I’m very aware that rape, especially the type being discussed here is a violent act and I don’t mean just the violence of forced sex... rape by a stranger does often involve a violent attack as well.

I think possibly you’re assuming the rape was the point of an attack and don’t realise it can just be part of it, women are left with life altering injuries or in cases of raped and murdered it’s not always raped then murdered, it can be she’s been beaten to death while being raped.

So in that context yes, I understood it as, an attack with added rape is worse than the same attack by itself.

@tabulahrasa

“The original comment comes across as 'oh, it's only a bit of a beating'. Perhaps that's just my interpretation.”

I honestly think it might be as I definitely didn’t interpret it like that - but then I’m very aware that rape, especially the type being discussed here is a violent act and I don’t mean just the violence of forced sex... rape by a stranger does often involve a violent attack as well.

I think possibly you’re assuming the rape was the point of an attack and don’t realise it can just be part of it, women are left with life altering injuries or in cases of raped and murdered it’s not always raped then murdered, it can be she’s been beaten to death while being raped.

So in that context yes, I understood it as, an attack with added rape is worse than the same attack by itself.

Yes, it's an example of me bringing my own preconceptions about FWR to bear, I guess. I probably wouldn't have said it on AIBU. As deydododatdodontdeydo said, a 70 year old man was kicked to death for wearing home-made clothes. I knew of a guy who had just retired, was walking home from a quiet drink with his mates, and was punched from behind by a group of coked up 20-something lads who had been in the same pub, and who ran off laughing. He had a fractured skull, and stopped going out even after recovery. This thread alone is full of similar examples. Ours is not a society that values men's lives above women's. It's just one that hands out inhumane cruelty in slightly different ways.

Ours is not a society that values men's lives above women's.

I strongly disagree with this but am conscious that this thread is really triggering some memories for me that are incredibly painful, so I feel it's probably best for me to leave.

I'm sure other people will be along very shortly with articulate thoughts on this though.

I do appreciate you contributing to the discussion but this statement is something that every man I personally know would disagree with, as we have had lots of discussions over the past week in particular.

I hope the conversation can continue as it's been interesting and hopefully will be productive but I think many women will be shocked by statements like this to the point it's difficult to engage.

I did appreciate you apologising earlier, that was kind and very much accepted

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Ours is not a society that values men's lives above women's.

I strongly disagree with this but am conscious that this thread is really triggering some memories for me that are incredibly painful, so I feel it's probably best for me to leave.

I'm sure other people will be along very shortly with articulate thoughts on this though.

I do appreciate you contributing to the discussion but this statement is something that every man I personally know would disagree with, as we have had lots of discussions over the past week in particular.

I hope the conversation can continue as it's been interesting and hopefully will be productive but I think many women will be shocked by statements like this to the point it's difficult to engage.

I did appreciate you apologising earlier, that was kind and very much accepted

That was never my intention. I will drop out if it means you will stay. Would you benefit from the discussion if I go back to just reading? I'm happy to shut up if it helps you get through some difficult issues.

We probably should be, no matter how tough we think we are, it’s usually being set upon by a group or someone with a knife where we come a cropper.

I’ve just had this conversation with my dear old mum, and as I have a sister I asked her this very question as of course she had the safety talk with sis that she never did with me. Her response was she was just as worried I could get knifed, but for some reason never articulated her anxieties.

I used to get bullied relentlessly at school although it was of a more psychological type than physical although one boy attempted to stab me once at school (and yes it was primarily boys, although the odd girl might join in for whatever reason), and I made a conscious effort and realisation that I would prefer to actually die than live in fear again.

Which as it turns out was complete youthful naïveté, I’ve been in fear plenty of times since then, but I always try to face it and overcome it. However in the end I believe I’ve just been lucky.

I asked my partner this the other day as he is as likely to get robbed/attacked as any other bloke and he said purely because he's 6ft5 and confident he could throw a punch/intimidate an assailant into backing down. So for him it's not that he doesn't think the possibility of being attacked exists, he just doesn't worry about being able to defend himself against a male like I would.

If a man is mugged / attacked
do the press ask what was he wearing?

If a man is mugged / attacked
do the police ask why were you out at that time?

If a man is mugged / attacked
will the court ask how many other times he has been out alone of an evening?

I have met many men and boys who are absolutely terrified of leaving their postcode area for fear of being stabbed or shot.

I suspect that the issue may be that they tend to be young males who fear that expressing vulnerability, let alone fear, would put them at greater risk of being stabbed or shot than they already are.

Also there are plenty of young males who are not involved, or at risk of being involved with county lines or other dangerous ways of making money who do not feel afraid but who, due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or standing up to bullies, end up stabbed or even dead.

It is worth pointing out that young females are also at risk from the same networks that do the stabbing and shooting, however their grooming and punishments tend to involve sexual violence rather than being murdered.

We need to do moe to protect young people, male and female

That's really kind @JurgenKloppsCat but you stay, I do think it's useful to have varied voices and also (I don't at all mean this in a disparaging way and will probably word it badly so please take my word I say this in good faith) I think it's incredibly important that men are challenged on this subject in particular the very real fact that women fear rape on top of an already violent attack.

If any man is attacked it is undeniably terrible, I don't think anything other than that - awful awful awful and wrong.

If a woman is attacked she will immediately worry she will also be sexually assaulted or raped.

I cannot put into words the absolute terror this causes women when we are in a vulnerable situation 1-1 with a man. Especially as we are likely to be physically unable to fight off a man as they tend to be stronger than us.

Again I don't minimise male on male violence (or female on male violence) but I'm trying to get across that most (not all) women are more constantly vigilant, risk assessing and on high alert is because of the very real possibility an attack will be either sexually motivated or include sexual assault.

There are exceptions to every rule - some men are attacked sexually and that is devastating, some women feel fine and no fear which is their prerogative.

But we are talking about a societal issue, not an individualistic one.

Thanks again for being open and listening I did appreciate it.

There are places I would think twice about going to on my own, particularly at night. I do a lot of wildlife photography, which involves me going to woodland and forests, and it does cross my mind that I could be attacked and the camera gear stolen. When my DW and I go for long walks in these places, we do see women on their own and we talk about it afterwards. My DW would not go walking on her own in these places. We live in a nice, semi rural village, but over the past year the crime rate has gone up, which is worrying.

It's such an interesting question. I've wondered about this a lot. I think there are a few answers.

One is that we are massively, hyper-aware of violence against women and girls because so many tv dramas feature it. So many tv shows and films have featured a serial killer murdering young women, even though this is quite rare in real life. So that fear of what might happen pervades our lives.

Secondly, we are constantly made aware that men might attack us because they so often shout at us on the street and engage in low-level intimidation. Men get much less of this so don't feel threatened. If you're a woman walking down the street and a man shouts "bitch" or "cunt" at you, you don't know whether he's going to follow that up with an assault.

Thirdly, of course, while murders are rare, rapes and sexual assaults are quite common, and we know that if we are raped no one will come to our help and there probably won't even be a prosecution.

But I know plenty of young men who have been mugged, with those incidents ranging from a theft at knife-point to a physical beating. It's not uncommon.

What I tend to think is that fear - that constant, low-level harassment and intimidation - is a way that men maintain their power over women. They know we're frightened, and that's the way they like it.

Testosterone is well known for increasing risk taking behaviour.

Mix with expectations and assumptions of how one should behave "as a man".

My brother used to wind up the local neds but reckoned he was ok because he could run faster

Dh was the victim of an unprovoked random attack which affected him very badly for a long time. Part of it was really feeling fear for the first time. He just couldn't get his head round the fact that it could happen to him.

I don't feel safe to go to Asda in my car at night to grab a few bits while dh looks after my DS just because what if some van pulls up next to my while I'm unloading my shopping. I don't feel safe to go out as a family when it's dark. Even in a car I don't feel safe when you could potentially get killed for confronting a dangerous moped driver who deliberately rides like a murderer putting you in danger. My dh has been in these situations and he fears them and avoids these situations like a plague because he is afraid that something will happen to us or my DS will grow up without a dad. We hang out locally within walking distance to our house.

I remember my dad getting into a fight because some bloke thought my dad was looking at him. It was frightening telling me to get into the car and lock myself in and not to open it until the police arrive while they were punching each other. I still sometimes think if my dad wasn't a martial arts instructor would they have come after me after finishing off my dad as I was a teenager then. Women have it worse than men but men are also afraid even if they don't admit it. My dh admits it and we always talk about not confronting because we don't know if that person has a weapon that could be catastrophic. I live in a relatively safe area in London. My DH's attitude has changed since having our DS because he feels he has more to lose even if he is taller and stronger and it is not worth being caught up. If dh is on a night out, he is generally sensible even under the influence of alcohol. He will take a Uber back home whereas if it was me, I would be afraid to even do that in case I get raped by the Uber driver which no way I could ever fight that off compared to a man who has a chance to defend themselves not that a Uber driver would rape my dh.

As a 20-something, I used to travel around the country with friends following my football team. There were some rules we would all follow - what not to wear, what not to say. There were some towns and cities where you couldn't go for a quiet beer before the match unless there was a large group, and even then, it could get very iffy at the drop of a hat. And it wasn't just football. City breaks/birthday, stag weekends could get very lairy very quickly if someone said the wrong thing, to the wrong person, with the wrong accent. So it's not correct to assume that men can wander round doing exactly as they want, nor that there aren't consequences for certain was of dressing, talking or behaviour.

When things did go wrong, the police would turn up, and woe betide you if you were stood in the wrong place. Thrown into a van, maybe a head massage with a friendly truncheon, perhaps a sneaky punch to the jaw - and that was the cops. They didn't care whether you were innocent or guilty. They didn't listen to your tale of woe. Whack, arrest, detention, tough shit. As someone said about Reynhard Sinaga, the bloke who's report eventually lead to him being convicted of over 200 rapes was initially disbelieved and up for an assault charge himself. And as weirdly unique as that case was, the attitude of the police to men reporting crimes seems to be exactly the same as it is for women.

@JurgenKloppsCat

As a 20-something, I used to travel around the country with friends following my football team. There were some rules we would all follow - what not to wear, what not to say. There were some towns and cities where you couldn't go for a quiet beer before the match unless there was a large group, and even then, it could get very iffy at the drop of a hat. And it wasn't just football. City breaks/birthday, stag weekends could get very lairy very quickly if someone said the wrong thing, to the wrong person, with the wrong accent. So it's not correct to assume that men can wander round doing exactly as they want, nor that there aren't consequences for certain was of dressing, talking or behaviour.

When things did go wrong, the police would turn up, and woe betide you if you were stood in the wrong place. Thrown into a van, maybe a head massage with a friendly truncheon, perhaps a sneaky punch to the jaw - and that was the cops. They didn't care whether you were innocent or guilty. They didn't listen to your tale of woe. Whack, arrest, detention, tough shit. As someone said about Reynhard Sinaga, the bloke who's report eventually lead to him being convicted of over 200 rapes was initially disbelieved and up for an assault charge himself. And as weirdly unique as that case was, the attitude of the police to men reporting crimes seems to be exactly the same as it is for women.

Hmm... not sure football is a good example tbh...

I’m originally from the west coast of Scotland and I’m now over in the east side of the central belt. There are areas where not only would I not wear the “wrong” football top if I did wear them, but you wouldn’t even buy normal clothes that happened to be in anything near team colours and you needed to check your jewellery when crucifixes were fashionable... and I’m not even a football fan.

That’s all as well as, is my skirt too short or top too low cut....

Tabula, it wasn't just football though. We could head to another city for a weekend away and run into problems totally unrelated. I know women have the whole 'look how she was dressed' thing, and it's inexcusable. But you can be a man out for a nice evening, and run into some dickhead who doesn't like your accent - which is even harder to change than your clothing when you need to order drinks. And if you are a young bloke out with a group of friends in a city that isn't your own, the attitude of some of the local bouncers, and police, might surprise you. You aren't always welcomed with open arms.

I've always been under the impression that young men, in their 20s, are the group most at risk of violent attack.

I suspect it’s the same ones doing the attacking as are getting attacked. So lots of violence, but confined mostly to a particular subgroup of men.

Interesting you say that JurgenKloppsCat
I live in a West Yorkshire town. There is another town about 20 miles away.
I have been told by men in their 20s that it's quite popular to go there for nights out, but they have to be careful not to let on where they are from because they will get into trouble.
The local lads dont' like lads from our town going over there, and there are often fights and beatings.

@merrymouse, maybe women don’t have those issues because they’ve learnt long ago not to look at men ‘funny’ as self preservation whereas men haven’t.

The main reason why men aren’t frightened though is, imo, because the violence they can experience is very self limited.
Football matches/celebrations, pubs/going out, maybe gangs. All easy to avoid if you want to.
They are not likely to encounter violence in the bus, walking down the street or waiting at a bus stop. Mugged maybe yes not the common verbal attack going physical because you’ve said NO to their ‘chatting up’.

Just asked my DH about this, as OP mentioned getting a male perspective.

He said he thinks in general men are less fearful than women about being violently attacked.

He said that it is very age-related and situation related.

He said “men in their late teens up to early thirties are more likely to be attacked and that risk drops off a cliff after mid thirties. Young men more likely to brawl with eachother, especially in groups and alcohol-related.”

He also said, there is a specific issue of gang violence that through his privileged upbringing and life, of not living in areas of social deprivation, he is not exposed to.

He would not be worried now as he is much older.

He thinks his risk has dropped right off as we’ve got older but mine hasn't.

He has been violently attacked in his own home by a housemate and mugged on the street in a small town. He’s lived in several major cities around the world and found them to be low on violence, much more of a problem where there is a “small-town mindset”.

They are not likely to encounter violence in the bus, walking down the street or waiting at a bus stop.

But several men on this thread have said this is the case. A few examples have been given of this, and I certainly know men who have been victims of random attacks in all of those places.

@Magnificentmug12

I think it’s because of sexual assault.

I’d rather be beaten up like a bloke than be raped then beaten up too.

Yep, me too.

@deydododatdodontdeydo

They are not likely to encounter violence in the bus, walking down the street or waiting at a bus stop.

But several men on this thread have said this is the case. A few examples have been given of this, and I certainly know men who have been victims of random attacks in all of those places.

I dint believe this is at the level women experience. It certainly isn’t the case for my DH and male friends. Different people with different experiences that certainly show you can’t generalise from the experience f a couple of people.

What these men have experienced is what @everythingthelighttouches describes.

Basically avoiding rowdy pubs, alcohol fuelled partying and d’épreuves areas stops a lot of those concerns.
None of the men I asked have ever wondered if they could running alone at night. They aren’t worried about walking alone in the countryside. They rent scanning the room when they come in to see if it’s ‘safe’. They dint wonder if it’s ok to go into the carriage with two men in it when the next one is empty (or deliberately go for the empty one).
It’s not relentless and constant.