Why AREN’T men more afraid?

[Lessthanaballpark]

In all the discussion around Sarah Everard and women’s safety, it keeps coming up that men are statistically more likely to be victims of violence ( the perps being men obvs)

Yet, why then aren’t men more afraid? I can’t remember seeing much in the news about male on male violence.

Is that because it’s easier to feel sympathy for women?

And why aren’t men afraid?

Is it because they think they have a fighting chance against any perps?

Is it because they are not targeted for being men?

Is it because the violence towards women is more sexual?

I’d genuinely like to know what everyone thinks, because it seems to me that they should be more scared than they are.

The difference I've noticed hasn't been middle class areas vs non-middle class. It's urban vs rural.

Most of us who have driven a car, walked along a road (see: Glasgow bin lorry, Westminster bridge attacks) or chosen to do dangerous sports or jobs (largely men) have contemplated the possibility of death or life changing injury at some point. In the imaginary worst-case scenario of these, and I would think the what-if thoughts of getting set upon outside a pub, beaten to the ground by a gang and having your head stamped on, your initial ordeal will be over fairly quickly, you will probably lie where you have fallen and nice people will be along soon to render aid and call the ambulance.

If news reports appeared in the papers of male marketing executives getting snatched off the street and bundled into vans, carted off and murdered elsewhere then dumped in a forest miles away and identified by their dental records, men would be more scared.

Men get told to "take care" a bit (not as often as women) but they don't really get told to vary their route or to be very careful not to let slip their address. The plotting, stalking, hunting, and killing of selected prey element of the nightmare scenario are absent. The two men jailed for plotting to kill Joss Stone were found in their car near her house with rope to tie her up, hammers, a samurai sword to cut off her head and binbags to dump the body parts. That level of terrifying premeditation doesn't feature in men's nightmares.

Do men ever read in the papers about male estate agents getting abducted, bound, gagged and driven for miles to a house, stuffed in a box inside a wheelie bin and pulled out every so often to be tortured on camera then stuffed back in the box, like Stephanie Slater? The closest most men get to imagining themselves in this sort of scenario is when they're tucked up in bed reading Bravo Two Zero or Tornado Down or An Evil Cradling.

@NiceGerbil On the walking home thing are you safer being walked home by a bloke who then has you alone in the dark? I'm not sure. I guess it's a judgement you form dependent on the guy, but most rapes are by someone known to the victim.

It's the same with cabs. I'd say my scariest creepy man was in a cab because there was no one else around and I had zero control. At least the creepy man on the train, there were other people on the train and houses nearby when I got off.

Prison politics dictates that in situations like this, you have to stab this rapist. If you don't, someone else will - and also stab you for not doing your duty. You are deemed to be somehow complicit in this guy's crime.

If this is true, why do we so rarely hear of this happening? I think the only instance of a sex offender being stabbed in prison that I've heard of was Richard Huckle (whose crimes were against children, not grown women).

No, I think this claim is more likely to be macho bravado. The same toxic masculinity that women fear. Like when men talk loudly about how they'd "castrate a pedo" if they got the chance, while also laughing along at their mate's misogynist joke. Have you noticed how these macho twats always bring violence into the conversation? It's always violence.

Very occasionally and the names are remembered, or if not the names the crimes.

Dennis Nilsen
Jeffrey Dahmer

Spring to mind.

There was a recent case with the worst serial rapist ever- attacking men he picked up in clubs.

It seems to be gay men- another group who the police often dismiss, and who don't report.

If a man is straight then these things are off his radar in terms of what he's going to worry about.

@powershowerforanhour

Most of us who have driven a car, walked along a road (see: Glasgow bin lorry, Westminster bridge attacks) or chosen to do dangerous sports or jobs (largely men) have contemplated the possibility of death or life changing injury at some point. In the imaginary worst-case scenario of these, and I would think the what-if thoughts of getting set upon outside a pub, beaten to the ground by a gang and having your head stamped on, your initial ordeal will be over fairly quickly, you will probably lie where you have fallen and nice people will be along soon to render aid and call the ambulance.

If news reports appeared in the papers of male marketing executives getting snatched off the street and bundled into vans, carted off and murdered elsewhere then dumped in a forest miles away and identified by their dental records, men would be more scared.

Men get told to "take care" a bit (not as often as women) but they don't really get told to vary their route or to be very careful not to let slip their address. The plotting, stalking, hunting, and killing of selected prey element of the nightmare scenario are absent. The two men jailed for plotting to kill Joss Stone were found in their car near her house with rope to tie her up, hammers, a samurai sword to cut off her head and binbags to dump the body parts. That level of terrifying premeditation doesn't feature in men's nightmares.

Do men ever read in the papers about male estate agents getting abducted, bound, gagged and driven for miles to a house, stuffed in a box inside a wheelie bin and pulled out every so often to be tortured on camera then stuffed back in the box, like Stephanie Slater? The closest most men get to imagining themselves in this sort of scenario is when they're tucked up in bed reading Bravo Two Zero or Tornado Down or An Evil Cradling.

This is very true.

DH did a piece of research about Grindr use in men. One of the things that surprised him was how unconcerned the men were about the potential for being raped/murdered by the random men they were inviting round. So he asked them about it.

He said they gave two reasons not to be afraid:

1. They weren’t afraid of being raped because they weren’t planning on saying no to sex (apparently being asked to do something they weren’t into, wasn’t a concern).

1. They thought they would be able to fight off any attacker.

As a woman and as a victim of rape, those attitudes seems scarily blasé, and obviously gay men do get assaulted, but that was the thought process.

I think you're probably safer walking home on your own.

There's also the thing about- when I lived away from home. I've walked you home can I come in for a cup of tea/ call a cab. And then trying it on. That happened an awful lot. They'd done you a favour and expected one back!

I went around by myself a lot in all sorts of states and the dodgy stuff that happened was never then, it was always when I should have been 'safe' (or safer anyway!).

As previously pointed out men tend to overestimate their abilities; and somewhere in the various permutations of their "nightmare scenario" will be one influenced by all the films they've ever watched where the unarmed male hero gets set upon by a gang of baddies and manages to dispose of them all through a series of brilliantly executed fighting moves, then- apparently completely unshaken or stirred, utters a wisecrack and strolls off. The most famous "man getting mugged at knifepoint" ever was in company with a woman, who appeared visibly scared. The man smiled and calmly said "That's not a knife...that's a knife" and casually brushed off the whole thing as the muggers scampered off.
It's all a fantasy, the average chap doesn't have superheroic martial arts skills or a Crocodile Dundee knife. But the happy ending, and the casual brushoff zero effect on the mental state go into the subconscious I would think. Fantasy fightback women like Lara Croft exist but there aren't as many. And the mental effect of an attack on a woman onscreen is often depicted as crying, shaking or mute shock like the rape victim in Gran Torino, as the manly men go charging off for revenge. When the men on screen get back home after being attacked and battered, they might pour themselves a double whisky and gaze contemplatively into the mirror as they rub a rough hewn thumb across the bruise on their manly granite jaw. They aren't ever depicted crying in the foetal position.

Women are told they are at risk going anywhere at night. So they believe it. It is reinforced throughout every area of our society. Even though this incident that has happened is extremely rare, we still see women being urged to be careful, which reinforces that walking at night is a risky thing.to do and that they should be scared. I have always taught my daughters that I would rather they walk than get into a car with someone they don't 100%trust. I feel more nervous that an acquaintance who seems friendly will insist a young woman shouldn't walk home alone and insist on taking them. This is much more likely to result in a sexual assault.
Men on the other hand are assumed to be safe unless they are going to dodgy areas or where there will be lots of drunks or gangs. It's quite possible for them to avoid this without it affecting their life too much.

The really interesting thing about the messages we are given from when we are young is that statistically they are bollocks. And while both males and females should take common sense precautions, the strongest messages are about sex attacks on women by men.

Why is this?

Might be interesting to think about.

A PP discussed policing of female risk taking and I think that's true in general. Alison Hargreaves, who died on K2 was subject to more disapproval for her choices than a man/ father would have been.

In my 20s I got stopped by a (male) stranger in the Brecon Beacons who started a lecture about the risks of weather and injury- granted I was wearing a strappy top, denim shorts and trainers and he couldn't see the map, compass, waterproofs, whistle and water in my daypack but I am sure he wouldn't have stopped a fit man in shorts, trainers and a Tshirt.

In NZ I did the Tongariro crossing on my own and climbed (well walked with a wee bit of scrambling) Taranaki on my own. My NZ relatives and acquaintances were worried almost to the point of "forbidding" me to do it. If I was male I rather suspect they would have checked I knew about the potential for very fast-descending weather and had the gear, then chilled out a bit.

Ted Walsh was once asked about whether he worried more for the his jockey daughter Katie than he did her jockey brother. He did. "She's such a pretty little slip of a thing", or words to that effect.

My first boss as a new grad used to fret about me going out castrating cattle and would rather send the male new grad. I pointed out that a pair of testicles aren't very good protection against below-waist-height kicks when you're directly behind a beast but he wasn't convinced.

So the question then is

Why is female risk of sexual assault amplified beyond other crime?
Why are the messages that are given so focussed on 'stranger danger' or men you're only just met rather than friends, colleagues, family etc?
Why is the focus son heavily on doing things/ avoiding things that for many women/ girls are not possible?
Why is danger after dark such a thing when in fact stuff happens at all times of day?

It feels a bit as if the warnings are linked to something else... Old fashioned ideas of what constitutes 'good' female behaviour? Certainly often when things happen her behaviour etc is dissected.

Has anyone ever seen a thing aimed at men saying. I dunno. If you see xyz going on these are ways you can help? EG tell the bar staff, call the police etc?

A couple of years ago I read about a situation that provides something of a counterpoint to this, where the risks of rape and murder were everyday realities rather than unlikely scenarios. It was about tribeswomen in Darfur getting set upon and gang raped by Janjaweed militia when they went out to collect firewood. The journalist asked them why they didn't get the men to go out for wood. The women had a pragmatic explanation- there was a reasonable chance that they would "only" be beaten and raped, whereas the men would very likely be beaten and killed. The tribe hadn't developed this perception of risk from media reports, but from collective bitter experience.

Powershower your post reminded me of an incident where two women who were backpacking went missing and they were described as 'travelling alone'.

Power that's also interesting.

An awful situation.

Seems like it was the men being protected though? I wonder how they treated women who were raped? What if they became pregnant by it?

MRAs complain that women are proritised, looked after. They cite women and children first as an example (although I believe the captain of the Titanic enforced this at gunpoint and more recent stats show men are more likely to survive such incidents). That they are expected to step in (I've never had that happen or seen it happen). Etc etc.

Sorry this is a bit garbled.

Men in many areas will discard women who have been raped/ especially if they become pregnant.

And these men didn't take the women? Kill them?

I need to look it up probably.

@NiceGerbil

I also think the middle class thing that I keep seeing is a bit odd.

Do middle class girls not walk to school, do middle class teens not go to the pub, to clubs?

I don't get that bit so would be interested to hear more.

For sure women who have other features are at higher risk, but this magic that means creepy men stay away from MC schoolgirls- how does that work?

I've seen it a lot so must be missing something.

I do think middle class kids are much more likely to be taxied around, rather than walking or taking public transport.

They are also probably less likely to live in neighbourhoods that feel unsafe to them or have to take work that has a journey home that feels unsafe because if they have access to more money they will have more options.

There may also be cultural issues that mean middle class girls curtail their behaviour to a greater extent than working class girls which means there is less opportunity for them to be harassed and they may socialise more in private.

I don't think there's magic that keeps creepy men away from middle class girls, though there is privilege in being middle class that may mean men are less likely to target them, especially if there are working class girls around they could target instead.

Do men ever read in the papers about male estate agents getting abducted, bound, gagged and driven for miles to a house, stuffed in a box inside a wheelie bin and pulled out every so often to be tortured on camera then stuffed back in the box, like Stephanie Slater?

Yes, this! It is the hatred that such men feel towards us that makes us afraid. Knowing that there are men out there who would rape, torture and murder us, who hate us just for being female gives me a low-level but real fear.

And the hatred that many men feel is reinforced in our daily interactions with men in a very subtle way. Every now and again a man will make a comment, whether it’s about you, another woman or just women in general, that gives you a brief glimpse of the hateful resentment that so many men feel towards women for the privilege they think they have.

This study looks at children up the age of 10 and finds that "Children's reported risk taking could be predicted from their risk appraisals, beliefs about the likelihood of injury, and attributions of injuries to bad luck." These factors were all gendered (making boys more likely to take risks). So different attitudes to potentially risky situations set in early, before many of the cultural influences discussed in the thread will have a direct impact. The study also suggests these differences may come from the attitudes of their peer group (i.e. boys' general over-optimism about risk will influence other boys).

I've seen previous studies suggesting there's a parental influence here, for example parents allowing young boys more autonomy and to take more risks, but the best evidence I can find suggests this doesn't happen, or perhaps that it did happen in the 1970s and 1980s but not more recently. It's unclear whether that's because of a reduction in autonomy for boys or an increase in autonomy for girls - my guess would be the former.

Boom boom I get it a bit more now.

I'm on nw London and public transport is the norm really.

So again it's really different depending on area.

Certainly me and my friends got loads of shit so that's why the idea that MC girls are somehow impervious strikes a bit of a sour note for me if I'm honest.

The other point about boys taking more risks than girls is interesting.

What taking risk looks like for girls is very different- especially when we're told all the time that doing simple things like walking alone after dark are risky.

Pre covid my son said he felt really scared when walking home from night out at the pub..... lots ofvdrunks and scuffles fighting....perhaps they don't say when they are scared.

perhaps they don't say when they are scared.

It would be nice if the scared men would come out and protest against the male violence they face. It would benefit all of us.

If DH were to walk back from the pub, he has every expectation that he will get home safely. If I were to walk back from the pub, I also have every expectation that I will get home safely. We live in a safe area.
If I were walking home from the pub (if only), chances are someone in my group would express concern about me doing that and would question whether it was safe, which would sow a seed of doubt in my mind. No one would do that to DH. He thought it ridiculous when I suggested it.
In reality, both of us would cycle. It's just quicker, but for me it avoids having to justify myself.