Why AREN’T men more afraid?

[Lessthanaballpark]

In all the discussion around Sarah Everard and women’s safety, it keeps coming up that men are statistically more likely to be victims of violence ( the perps being men obvs)

Yet, why then aren’t men more afraid? I can’t remember seeing much in the news about male on male violence.

Is that because it’s easier to feel sympathy for women?

And why aren’t men afraid?

Is it because they think they have a fighting chance against any perps?

Is it because they are not targeted for being men?

Is it because the violence towards women is more sexual?

I’d genuinely like to know what everyone thinks, because it seems to me that they should be more scared than they are.

Sorry for the rambling post! This is a topic I’ve thought about a lot over the course of my adult life, but this is the first time I’ve really described any of those thoughts. My feeling is that a large part of this comes down to how risk is viewed differently in relation to the sexes - both by society and individuals.

I believe there are two elements: 1 elimination of risk is seen as the ideal for women, whereas men are encouraged to participate actively in life, accepting a level of risk. 2. There is infantilisation of women who don’t go along with this and put themselves in danger: they can only have done this because they didn’t understand the risks.

In my own life, my parents inculcated in me from a young age that being/keeping myself safe is an absolute priority. This led to negative outcomes - in my first term at university I didn’t join any of the events I was interested in as it would have meant going to them on my own after dark. So I was miserable. But I was safe. To do otherwise given my upbringing was unthinkable at the time. Needless to say, I don’t remember the same fuss levelled at my younger brother.

Then, I remember several years later having a blazing row with my father about walking the five minutes home from the train station after dark (the road to my house was dark and leafy) - he couldn’t accept that I was aware of the risk but preferred to take that rather than restrict my life. Kept repeating that I didn’t understand, that something could happen to me. I was angry that he couldn’t comprehend that I understood the risks very well, having been on the receiving end of plenty of intimidating male behaviour by then, but that even so I was not prepared to live a half life to eliminate all risk.

These are obviously very personal experiences and I realise all parents are not like mine, but I see certain ideas crop up again and again around women and risk.

The main one is that a sensible woman will not take risks. Therefore, if she does she is ignorant or foolish. Or possibly someone else hasn’t stepped in to protect her from herself. I read a horrendous article after Meredith Kercher was murdered imploring parents not to allow their daughters to study abroad. Not only victim-blaming, but assuming women in their twenties are still under the guardianship of their parents! I have since noticed that when women die abroad reports often focus on risk and foolhardy behaviour (Meredith’s death was lumped in with several other women’s, with the only link being that they were all women who died abroad), whereas men’s deaths when travelling are reported more neutrally. One particularly aggravating report was about an adventurer who had tragically died sailing in a dangerous part of South America - comments to the effect that she was out of her depth and didn’t understand what she’d got herself into. I tend to think as someone undertaking a venture like that she probably understood very well, but she still felt her endeavour was worth the risk.

(I have noticed a similar strain of thought in articles about birth choices - if women don’t choose natural childbirth it’s because they are under the illusion a CS is easy. If women delay having children it’s because they don’t understand it may be more difficult as they get older. Rubbish!)

It’s different for men because society expects men to proactively go out into the world. This is the priority, not staying safe. Therefore, when a man is attacked when walking alone at night there are fewer voices questioning his choices because the starting point is autonomy and agency, rather than safety at all costs. Under those circumstances, there wouldn’t have been the same expectation that he must curb his lifestyle. Whereas a woman wouldn’t be hurt if she’d done as she ought to - kept herself safe above all other considerations.

This is all backed up in society via the films and tv programmes pps have mentioned showing women as prey, the warnings we get and so on.

I do believe in my case at least part of fear I feel when eg walking at night is due to feeling I’m doing something I shouldn’t - I’m breaking the rules and may be punished for it. The same rules don’t apply to men.

Why are men so confident they will 'never be attacked with sex in mind'?
they could be raped by men of course they may fight off one man but a gang of men?

TheOldRazzleDazzle Absolutely!!

Why are men so confident they will 'never be attacked with sex in mind'?

Because it's exceedingly rare, at least in this country.
I can think of one local case in the last 5 or so years where a man was dragged down an alley by a group of men and raped.

@TheOldRazzleDazzle - those are some great insights - very helpful. I think it highlights how this isn't just a question of risk, but our perception of risk.

For example, I know when I get behind the wheel of a car there's a chance I could die in an accident, but I'm not aware of any fear when I'm driving. Is that a male risk-taking attitude or is that true for women too?

On the other hand, when I sit in a plane at take-off I do feel that lurch of anxiety in my stomach, even though statistically flying in a commercial jet is far safer than driving a car. But even then, I don't have any fear when I book a plane ticket - it doesn't change my behaviour.

In the same way, if I were booking a ticket for a city centre event it wouldn't occur to me to worry that afterwards I will have to walk back to a deserted car park late at night, but I appreciate for women that is a consideration.

A lot of assumptions in the question....

For me, it depends on where I am.

I've been randomly attacked 3 times, once a defence wound on the back of my arm from someone who tried to rob me at knife point. A broken humerus when a bunch of school kids attacked me with a fence post for some kind of initiation and a third time where I wasn't injured.

On a well lit street in an area I know at a reasonable time, I'd be wary rather than scared, but there are definitely times I've been caught out, missing the a bus etc where i've made a poor decision to walk through less than ideal areas, and fear is definitely a thing.

I think the comment about sexual violence is pertinent, I've always assumed I would be a victim of robbery more likely so have always been prepared to make a snap judgement whether to defend my property or just hand everything over.

I've also taken various precautions like stashing most of my cash in my sock so i can just hand over a wallet with a fiver in it if it comes to it, and things like keeping a sharp key in hand in my pocket, just in case.

@DadDadDad - it’s interesting to think about other risky activities. I always feel like I’ve received mixed messages about danger. Funnily enough, I don’t like flying or driving but have always been encouraged to do both - there’ll always be some risk in life, we just have to get on with things, etc. It’s when it comes to the more gendered safety issues, such as being out alone at night, that it appears more usual to both inflate risk and expect people to markedly restrict their freedom in order to reduce it. One of the things that most upset me when speaking to my dad was his determination to see me as a reckless, ignorant risk taker when I’m an overly cautious person in every area of my life. The last thing I as an individual need is to be told to be more fearful!

This is just one strand of the female fear/danger issue, and much of what else here resonates (in particular, how the prevalence of low-level sexist harassment feeds a fear of rarer, more extreme violence and the poster above talking about how women are always asked if they’re safe walking home), but it’s the dominant factor for me. It’s a sense I can’t shift that I’m doing something I shouldn’t if I’m out alone at night, etc., that I’m tempting fate. I don’t feel that way about driving at all even though I’m a cautious driver.

A male friend went to his usual place for a massage and was shocked when instead of one of the female staff a male member of staff came to do it for him. When he told me about it he was still startled at how uncomfortable and vulnerable he felt, and how he was not able to relax and enjoy the way he always did with a female member of staff intimately touching and handling his body.

I pointed out that he had not enjoyed being in a situation where he felt vulnerable, where whether or not things stayed safe and appropriate was in the gift of the other person, and where he knew if they chose to be inappropriate or the situation became one he felt uncomfortable or unsafe in, he was not sure he could safely stop it without it coming to a fight he might not win. In fact he felt sexually vulnerable, it was a very new experience to him - where as to women, it's a feeling they deal with all the bloody time .

I've mopped up my DB who was horribly beaten up for his wallet one night when he just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time with a gang of teenaged boys who felt entitled to what he had. Men are absolutely at risk of violence. But I was seven when I first experienced that I was walking around with something many male people feel justifiably entitled to have access to at will, whether sneaked or openly or forcibly taken, and that something was my biology. I should be long past it and into the invisible stage now, but I still get the looks, the comments, the stranger randomly propositioning me while I'm walking the dog, the man who cycles past and then stops at the entrance to the underpass ahead, leans on the wall and lights a cigarette... and I head immediately in the other direction towards as many people as possible. Because it might be smirks and catcalls and invitations you get called a frigid bitch for refusing, or it might be that this man chooses not to be nice today, and I have nothing more than hope. It's in his gift.

It's fucking constant for women, it's everywhere, it's all the time and it's not really seen as a problem. Men don't have to deal with that, or be afraid of that. They don't live in a situation where they are basically and openly prey.

Razzle dazzle great post.

It’s different for men because society expects men to proactively go out into the world. This is the priority, not staying safe.

And yet I probably know more women who have travelled alone than men. Some of this is probably self-selecting - I am a woman, and when travelling, I am more likely to meet women travelling alone than men, because I mostly selected single eex rather than mixed dorms in backpackers and youth hostels. But most women wanted to see some of the world, and like me, not having someone to go with at the time, went alone anyway. I do also know men who have travelled alone, but it seemed to me that more women did, though I don't know if that is any reflection of the stats. In fact, I wasn't often alone, because I joined a group to go through Africa and for excursions in other places, but I hadn't met any if them before.

There's a bloke at work who thinks I am amazing because I often go on holiday on my own - he never would,not even to somewhere fairly close like Spain or France. But if I didn't go alone, I would have hardly travelled anywhere at all, and I don't see much more risk in staying in the centre of a European city I don't know than in staying in a British city I don't know. Perhaps I just know some particularly nervous men, but it does seem to me women are more likely to get out and do things alone than men - perhaps because we're told everything is a risk, so we might as well get and and do what we want anyway, whereas men don't have the same message, so things like travelling abroad alone holds a greater risk than being out and about at home alone, and then not a risk they will take alone.

@powershowerforanhour

A PP discussed policing of female risk taking and I think that's true in general. Alison Hargreaves, who died on K2 was subject to more disapproval for her choices than a man/ father would have been.

In my 20s I got stopped by a (male) stranger in the Brecon Beacons who started a lecture about the risks of weather and injury- granted I was wearing a strappy top, denim shorts and trainers and he couldn't see the map, compass, waterproofs, whistle and water in my daypack but I am sure he wouldn't have stopped a fit man in shorts, trainers and a Tshirt.

In NZ I did the Tongariro crossing on my own and climbed (well walked with a wee bit of scrambling) Taranaki on my own. My NZ relatives and acquaintances were worried almost to the point of "forbidding" me to do it. If I was male I rather suspect they would have checked I knew about the potential for very fast-descending weather and had the gear, then chilled out a bit.

Ted Walsh was once asked about whether he worried more for the his jockey daughter Katie than he did her jockey brother. He did. "She's such a pretty little slip of a thing", or words to that effect.

My first boss as a new grad used to fret about me going out castrating cattle and would rather send the male new grad. I pointed out that a pair of testicles aren't very good protection against below-waist-height kicks when you're directly behind a beast but he wasn't convinced.

Completely agree with this. The same men who tried to prevent me from walking home alone were themselves keen rock climbers and mountaineers who routinely took far greater risks than I ever did. I'm sure they'd have taken a very dim view of anyone trying to prevent them from doing these things.

It seems that gangsters, violent thugs, murderers, armed robbers and the like see themselves as morally superior to those guilty of sexual crimes
some kind of hierarchy is 'needed' otherwise it will be a free for all, plus creating a pecking order is something that tends to happen b/c....well human nature I guess!

Because they find it more difficult to talk about vulnerable feelings

If we get to the bottom of it we might find that we have a lot in common across both genders !

@DeepThinkingGirl

Because they find it more difficult to talk about vulnerable feelings

If we get to the bottom of it we might find that we have a lot in common across both genders !

I'm sure there is some of this but there are definitely cases where men aren't afraid and women are.

My boyfriend actively chooses to go running at 10 pm because it's when he likes to do it and then shower before bed. I love the idea of it too (and in normal times would go to the gym late) but wouldn't dream of actually doing it out of fear - a fear he just doesn't have.

Similarly walking with headphones, male friend of mine ask don't I get bored on the long walk to places without listening to music, well I do and I'd much rather have music, but I feel it's too risky too - a risk that they just don't consider is one to them.

I always lock the doors from the inside when I get into my car and double check them if I end up driving someone without street lights. I've been asked again by male friends why I'm so on it about this and I explain the fear of someone just jumping into your car at traffic lights or being stopped on a dark road and someone getting it. It's again something that's just never occurred to them (probably because these were things my mother taught me and they weren't, but still the fear was instilled in a woman and not a man).

In these cases they are genuinely just less afraid. It's not that they're unwilling to talk about it like with a walking home late from a pub type scenario. These are things men have every choice not to do, and most women don't do out of fear, but they still choose to do because they aren't afraid.

I think I'm relatively blazé about walking around late at night because statistically I know that I am at much greater risk from a male partner or friend. And I've been lucky, the partner and friends have all been decent, even the times when I have put myself in danger by getting overly drunk or whatever. So my trust hasn't been destroyed in that direction. But I refuse to segregate myself from men, so staying in after dark, well it would cost me far too much (job, social etc) for a small reduction in risk. What's the point in curtailing my life like that? And I kind of resent the implication from some people that I should. I feel that implication fuels my fear and constrains me - as well as the actual behaviour of men; yes I've encountered that type of man on my travels; it's just never gone past a certain point.

For the women upthread who have mentioned that their DSs or DHs feel unsafe walking home at night.

That's not great obviously.

However women get the message constantly that they are at risk if they do xyz. Walking home after dark alone is one obviously.

Many women therefore do things like- take cabs, arrange to stay with a friend, leave early while there are more people about etc.

I asked upthread but got no answer. If a man or boy feels unsafe walking then those options are available to them. I understand they may not want to talk about their feelings with other men. But they don't need to do that to do these things.

The things women do can cost money, be a hassle, limit freedom. You may have to leave when you're having a good time because your friend is ready to go etc.

I don't really understand the point that the posters who talk about their make relatives are trying to make tbh so if anyone wants to explain more that would be good.

I think there are a lot of reasons for this.

I think a lot of men do assume they will be able to defend themselves, at least to some extent. If you look though at elderly men, for example, often they are more afraid, and I think it's the feeling they will be more physically vulnerable if something does happen.

But risk assessment also comes into it. Every study on risk assessment shows that in general, people are pretty crappy at it. So men may underestimate their risk, but I am pretty sure that a lot of women overestimate the risk of stranger assault in the street. Probably because it's been over-emphasised in safety campaigns and tv shows and such which are designed to be dramatic rather than realistic, but still affect how we perceive risk even when we know that to be the case.

Sexual assault also has a quality of intimate violation that seems particularly horrible to contemplate (though actually I think any physical assault, even mugging, often affects people that way more than they expect. But they do expect it about sexual assault.) And then people also worry about pregnancy and STIs.

Also - once people start to worry about this, I think it can feed off of itself and get worse. If you go out walking at night, for example, and it's fine, you become more confident about it, whereas if you avoid it fears can sometimes grow.

Not all women are particularly worried about it though, it would be interesting to what differentiates those who are from those who aren't.

I agree with this. I think men who are cautious and follow the same rules as women have less risk of violence than women.

I've yet to catch up on the rest of the thread, but this stood out to me.

I'm not sure I agree, as there are several others factors like the fact that boys are socialised with "boys don't hit girls" and "big boys don't cry etc". These mean that many men will be less hesitant to hit a man than a women, and that many feel they can't show weakness, which is a big part of the male social hierarchy.

A woman can often slap a man without getting beaten senseless, but a small man usually knows it will not go well if he lays his hand on a big rugby player/boxer etc.

I have never seen a woman slap a man except on the telly!

Additionally my DH is very big and he always used to get small aggressive men starting on him. He called it 'small man syndrome'. I have no idea of the psychology behind that.

I took plenty of the type of risks women aren't supposed to take.

I thought, if something's going to happen it's going to happen and it's not worth me restricting my life over.

I find it interesting that women and girls are pressed to fear strangers, dark etc. When the higher risks are with people they know.

So there's something else going on about why we are given the messages we are.

@NiceGerbil

I took plenty of the type of risks women aren't supposed to take.

I thought, if something's going to happen it's going to happen and it's not worth me restricting my life over.

I find it interesting that women and girls are pressed to fear strangers, dark etc. When the higher risks are with people they know.

So there's something else going on about why we are given the messages we are.

I don't worry about that stuff generally either. I think the only time I let it change what I was going to do is when there was a specific risk of current attacks in the area I was living in, where they had not yet caught the perpetrator.

But I'm generally not risk adverse.

I'm not sure how significant the thing about the narrative towards women is, though I agree that there isn't a similar one directed toward men generally. It strikes me though that there are increasingly a lot of risk messages given out that are similar - risk of child abduction being one example. But there seem to be more and more targeted warnings about safety and often not proportionate, or ignoring other more significant risks. And I think people overall are becoming more and more sensitised to this kind of messaging.

So while I don't think it's the whole explanation it probably is also affected by the whole overall social trend in that direction.

I had a few months where my favourite spot at the tube station had this issue poster about 9 feet high opposite me

www.google.com/search?q=tube+advert+unlicenced+cab&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjGuoXK4LPvAhUiEWMBHZVKBM0Q2-cCegQIABAC&oq=tube+advert+unlicenced+cab&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQAzIECB4QCjoCCCk6BAgAEEM6BwgAELEDEEM6BQgAELEDOggIABCxAxCDAToCCAA6BggAEAUQHjoGCAAQCBAeUOtFWP6bAmCBogJoBXAAeACAAYACiAHBIZIBBjQuMjUuM5gBAKABAbABBcABAQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=XRZQYIaYE6KijLsPlZWR6Aw&bih=670&biw=360&client=ms-android-samsung-ss&prmd=imsvn#imgrc=2gOVl-X4zLdn2M

Women being attacked is in loads of TV progs.

Don't leave your drink unattended, stick with your mates etc etc etc

There's no doubt that these messages are out there.

I'm not suggesting they aren't, I'm suggesting that they are part of something larger. Look at things like "stranger danger" campaigns, for example. A very similar approach.

The culture is very big on all kinds of safety warnings, of all kinds, often targeted at specific groups. And there is also a hugely inflated fear of crime in the public generally.

Television is a significant part of the reason I suspect that people may mistake the risk profile on things like women out walking, or child abduction. The thing is of course t is not meant to inform us about realistic risk, it's meant to be exciting/dramatic/scary. A child abduction story or rape story has lots of room for horror and drama. But the risk perception parts of the brain don't really filter out real images from non-real ones.

Additionally my DH is very big and he always used to get small aggressive men starting on him. He called it 'small man syndrome'. I have no idea of the psychology behind that.

Have you never heard the phrase "it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog"? I think it's often fairly accurate as realistically whoever lands the first couple of good punches usually wins - it doesn't take much of a hit to the jaw to knock somebody unconscious.

Little men sometimes use aggression as a substitute for size to make people think "I'm not taking him on, he seems like a nutter (who might bite my nose off, etc)."

I don’t think men are award of the risk whereas women are, which is why significantly more men are the victims of violent assault than women. As has been mentioned many times, women are much more likely to be victims of DV in a domestic setting than attacked on the street. The feeling of vulnerability is another thing. But then when my 14 ds catches the bus to school he always goes with two of his friends from the same school. He said he’d feel too “vulnerable “ on his own. His words.