What's wrong with 'Cisgender'

[ASugar]

As someone who identifies as a cisgender woman and works in sexual health, I am honestly confused as to why so many females (sex term) who identify with being women (gender term) dislike the term Cisgender?

Now I'm not here to tell you what to say, I am genuinely curious.

However, here is my opinion for those who may be interested.

Cisgender just means you are not transgender. That your sex links you your gender and you assign any gender terms (ie. Pronouns, Gender identity, sometimes gender expression but not always, etc). I personally don't like to think that just because I was born with a vagina means I am a woman because I know many men with vaginas and women with penises. Additionally those who don't have a gender identity, then that would mean you wouldn't use women and men as they're gender terms (according to medical professionals). It would make you non binary or agender.

I understand that the term 'Cis' has been used to insult others which for that I am sorry.
My view is that if you can't allow trans women to be accepted in society and identified as women (without the need for 'trans' infront of it constantly) then we should be using cisgender. It is a medical term that professionals such as the NHS recognize. But I understand that is just my opinion.

I probably won't be commenting as I can imagine this will be filled with comments and I don't want to disrespect anyone's views. Just a cisgender woman who wants to understand more...

And as always I would appreciate if you respect my view as I'm going to be respecting all of yours.

I've worked in the NHS for 25 years and the only time I've noted staff (male and female) referring to themselves as cis was at a specialist service for trans people, and the staff wanted to show that they had some understanding of the issues. Neither 'cis' nor 'trans' are medical or scientific words, they are political words. I find the history of patient self description - service user, client, patient, customer, survivor etc etc very interesting and they do have meaning, but I don't want to use political words to describe myself in what should IMO be an apolitical service. Of course many would say it's impossible for any service to be apolitical, and they'd have a point I'm sure.

Cis is just made up crap, I was born a woman and not assigned it.

Because I don't identify as being any gender. I know I am a woman because my body is female. I do not have a gender identify.

Why do we have to know the gender of our child? Shop in stores where clothes are described by gender? Etc.

We didn't find out the sex of our baby till birth. We love colourful non gendery clothes, although we find boys clothes are better made and girls clothes are more colourful so babe gets a mix. No need to pop babe in a gender box.

Love's dollies, loves cars, likes us singing, chasing balls. I doubt you'd guess gender correctly.

Sex was obviously needed whilst checks were being done in pregnancy by medical experts so obviously was important for that.

@ItsALovelyDayToday

I don’t like cis because it implies I choose to be seen as or thought of as a woman. I don’t, I just am a woman because I was born a girl abs I grew up. I don’t agree with gender as a concept, so I don’t identify as any gender. I just am what I was born as.

Sometimes I don’t like aspects of being a woman - pregnancy scares, periods etc and sometimes I do things that some see as “man” things - have short hair, watch football. None of this changes whether I’m a woman or not.

This. Absolutely this.

However being female doesn't always mean you are a woman.

It literally does always mean that.
If you are female and you are an adult, you are a woman.

If you want to identify as male, go nuts. Do whatever you like. But forcing people to say that this means you are no longer a woman is downright bizarre and categorically untrue. You are still a woman, whatever your identity. You cannot change your biological sex.

Also, why do you call yourself a woman if the term technically is a gender term. By the way, scientists and medical professionals have determined this.

Please could you provide a link to the scientific and medical definitions of what it means to be a woman?

As a child, I was taught in science lessons about biological sex, but not about gender. I believe that gender is a social construct, but the term woman has historically been used to refer to a biologically female adult human. I think the definition of "woman" in terms of socially constructed gender, rather than biological sex, is only a recent phenomenon. Am I wrong?

I don't know my child's gender and he's 22. His sex is male.

[quote ASugar]@TheBuffster very interesting point.

Personally I find that being cisgender is a privilage. Similarly to being hetrosexual. To clarify, that doesn't mean all cisgender people are privilaged by societies terms, but it does mean we aren't discriminated against for not having gender dysphoria and for our gender transition. Where as transgender people are.[/quote]
Being treated by society as the same sex/gender as your birth sex does confer some privilege, of course. But then for some women being treated as the same sexual/gender as their birth sex also confers major disadvantage.

It’s not Top Trumps of privilege and oppression.

In some areas, transgender activists are in conflict with women’s rights activists as their fight for additional rights/recognition/language changes is in direct opposition to what natal females need to be safe and protected.

@ASugar

Many people have stated that they don't agree or believe in gender. Although I disagree I can respect that decision. An additional question I'd like to ask is then why do we have to know the gender of our child? Shop in stores where clothes are described by gender? Etc.

Also, why do you call yourself a woman if the term technically is a gender term. By the way, scientists and medical professionals have determined this.

Most of us here are all about ignoring "gendered" aspects of life: we let our kids play with whatever they want, don't dress girls exclusively in pink or our boys in blue but let them wear whatever colour they like; don't think that maths is for boys, or that boys don't cry, and so on and so forth.

What many of us do pay attention to is biological sex, because it matters a lot in many aspects of life. There's a great book by Caroline Criado-Perez that deal with the fact that the world is designed for the male body, and doesn't take in account that women's bodies are different. So, for example, drug doses are calculated for the male physique, seatbelts are designed around male body shapes, and so on, to the point that it puts women in active danger.

Biological sex is relevant, gender is not. Nobody here cares if a man here paints his nails, or a woman wears a plaid shirt and smokes a cigar.

Oh, and by the way, "scientists and medical professionals" have done no such thing.

I personally don't like to think that just because I was born with a vagina means I am a woman because I know many men with vaginas and women with penises

You don't though. You know transwomen with penises (also known as biological males) and you know transmen with vaginas (biological females)

Many people who are born female don't then identify as being a woman. As gender and sex are separate

Woman isn't a reference to gender, but to sex. Why does every person who comes on here to lecture us all not know the difference?

The term cis was originally used only in a strictly medical context in which a simple and easy way was sought to differentiate those who identify as trans from those who do not.

Volkmar Sigusch, a German psychiatrist and sexologost coined the term "Zissexuell" (i.e. cissexual) in 1991 because he reasoned that if there are transsexuals, there must of necessity also be cissexuals.

Interestingly, Sigusch's work on transsexualism includes such gems as categorically stating that no male person can ever understand what it means to be female (and vice versa).

In his understanding of the ideas behind transsexual and cissexual (he only coined the word cisgender in 1995), it's all very much about the absence or presence of dysphoria. And about the presumption that it is healthy to accept the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with one's sex.

Following his invention of these two words, they were rapidly adopted by those working with patients who suffered from gender dysphoria. In their writing, it denotes those who are not suffering from gender dysphoria and who accept the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with their own sex. This is framed as the healthy, the natural response to stereotypes.

If you have read any second wave feminism, you will know that even at the time that Sigusch coined the word "cisgender" to denote the healthy and natural response to sex stereotypes, there was already a large body of feminist work that explored and explained why it was natural and healthy for those of the female sex in particular not to embrace sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes. Because these stereotypes were used to oppress women and girls, to discriminate against them, to deny them equal access to opportunities.

So from the outset, the concept of being "cisgender" as the natural and healthy state of being conflicted with the feminist understanding of sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes as being particularly damaging for the female sex, regardless of whether these stereotypes were willingly accepted by those they were imposed on or whether they were resisted.

Now it is entirely possible that you do indeed embrace these stereotypes and happily embody them. But I would bet money that there are some preferences, personality traits or skills and interests you have that are not stereotypically associated with the female sex. Because few of us embrace all of the stereotypes associated with our sex. Of course, far more people than we can count embody these stereotypes without embracing them. That's because we are socialised into them and it is very hard to shrug of one's conditioning. It is even harder to defy societal expectations when that risks exclusion, censure or punishment. The word "cisgender" does not allow for partial rejection of those stereotypes, nor does it differentiate between those who happily embrace the stereotypes and those who are forced into them.

So that's one reason why imposing the label "cisgender" on others outwith the strictly medical context in which it was coined is an issue - it is simply incorrect for the vast majority of us.

Furthermore and this is probably more important for us here on the Feminism and Women's Rights board, I should add that in modern usage, the word "cis" is no longer a mere reference to someone who embraces the straitjacket of stereotypes associated with one or the other sex. It is also and especially posited by many trans rights activists as denoting the oppressor class in a proposed oppressive system whose axis is gender identity. That's why "cis" isn't just offensive to me, it's gynephobic.

That's because there can be no axis of oppression based on how society reacts to a given individual's preference for the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with the sexes. Just as with outright oppression on the basis of sex, the correct axis of oppression for this issue is also sex. And the oppressor class in that system is the male sex class. Labelling most members of the female sex class as cis and therefore as the oppressors in power over those who identify as trans seeks to obscure that fact.

Oh and... these political words are inherently unstable. Service user was huge in MH years ago, using 'patient' would have been shocking. Now SU has become quite suspect. Look at the rise of 'trans nonbinary' which makes absolutely no sense at all, but which seems to mean 'trans sympathiser, GNC but not going to transition'. First saw it personally maybe 18 months ago, it's all over the place now.

Sorry, since when did "woman" become a term to describe gender? It means adult human female. It has meaning in law. It is not your word to give away.

If a group of people needs a word to describe their collective sense of identity, they are free to coin their own, new word.

If they want legal rights and protections granted to them on the basis of this new word, they are free to fight for them. I imagine may women here would support them.

Gender is irrelevant to me, I don't have a gender, so I can't be "cis" gender. I have a sex. That's it.

Additionally those who don't have a gender identity, then that would mean you wouldn't use women and men as they're gender terms (according to medical professionals). It would make you non binary or agender.

No you wouldn't and no it wouldn't.

What terms do these 'medical professionals' use when determining the sex of a baby? Or an adult? You know it's Girl/Boy/Woman/Man right?

Not having a gender identity (because it's a socially constructed nonsense made up of hideous and unhelpful stereotypes that have been used to oppress females for centuries and, given the high incidence of male suicide, isn't particularly helpful for men and boys either) doesn't make someone 'agender' or 'non binary'. Don't try to assign gender identities to people please.

I am a woman. I don't want other people putting a prefix in front of that. If people expect me to use their pronouns and prefixes then why can they not accept mine. Why should we be continuously questioned about this when the other way round is not considered acceptable? And why can't you just accept that many people do not want an identity pushed upon them and that we reject this concept? It seems to be a case of constantly trying to force women to accept this identity foisted upon them until they just get exhausted with it and give in. It's simply not on and it's very disrespectful.

service-manual.nhs.uk/content/inclusive-language

[quote ASugar]@Glamflimfloogety

I would just like to point out I have not and will not be reporting a single reply. Even if you insult me and misgender me. I want to hear peoples opinions.[/quote]
I'm a biological woman. I don't need anything added to the word to enhance the definition. I am what I am. An adult female human being.

Made up words are not necessary for something that hasn't changed

Because I don't want to identify as what I'm NOT.

www.gires.org.uk/resources/terminology/

@RedToothBrush said it far better than I can.

I do not think that other people wanting to change their identity should force me into changing mine. I get offended by being called ciswoman, but given that I am a middle aged human female it is OK to offend me apparently as I am not oppressed.

So, I work in a male dominated field. I am what used to be known as "tomboy." There are rarely any women in my field, full stop. This means when the men go out and hang out, I am left on my own. When I get invited, I am not privy to the topic of where we will go and what we will do. When there are, shockingly, other women - we are grouped together and SEPARATELY. When I want to play on a sports team in my workplace, I am told to setup a women's team, with no other women available to set such team up with.

Now, if I were to say I am a trans man, these men I work with would NOT respect that. I would still be ostracised. I know this, they know this. And yet here I am expected to remain a bit by myself rather than be amongst my peers properly. BTW - most of these colleagues also don't believe sexism exists. I finally got some sexism in writing and they were "shocked". Also, most would describe themselves as progressive and trans inclusive.

So I am female but I guess I myself am trans. However, I'm not a trans man since I know for sure I would not be "one of the guys". What am I? I think a lot of women are feeling that they are suddenly and unexpectedly trans as I presume I would be non-binary. And if this is the case, I think the above can also explain why you see a HUGE rise in girls asking GIDS for assistance.

So, in the end, I don't identify as a woman...I just am a woman and don't really know what being a woman means other than the fact.

It's ironic that the very people that are desperate to "gender" themselves and are so offended by others mis gendering them want to "gender" other people.
I'm an adult female, a woman by definition, I don't need to identify as anything and find it offensive that anyone would try to push it on to me.
The concept of gender is ridiculous because only a very tiny minority of people are entirely feminine or masculine, to say you are one of the other seems very regressive.

Stonewall says that cisgender means your gender identity matches your sex. I reject the very idea that there is or should be a 'match' between gender identity and sex, and I reject the idea that I have a gender identity. Hence, I'm not cisgender.