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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What's wrong with 'Cisgender'

999 replies

ASugar · 04/03/2021 15:49

As someone who identifies as a cisgender woman and works in sexual health, I am honestly confused as to why so many females (sex term) who identify with being women (gender term) dislike the term Cisgender?

Now I'm not here to tell you what to say, I am genuinely curious.

However, here is my opinion for those who may be interested.

Cisgender just means you are not transgender. That your sex links you your gender and you assign any gender terms (ie. Pronouns, Gender identity, sometimes gender expression but not always, etc). I personally don't like to think that just because I was born with a vagina means I am a woman because I know many men with vaginas and women with penises. Additionally those who don't have a gender identity, then that would mean you wouldn't use women and men as they're gender terms (according to medical professionals). It would make you non binary or agender.

I understand that the term 'Cis' has been used to insult others which for that I am sorry.
My view is that if you can't allow trans women to be accepted in society and identified as women (without the need for 'trans' infront of it constantly) then we should be using cisgender. It is a medical term that professionals such as the NHS recognize. But I understand that is just my opinion.

I probably won't be commenting as I can imagine this will be filled with comments and I don't want to disrespect anyone's views. Just a cisgender woman who wants to understand more...

And as always I would appreciate if you respect my view as I'm going to be respecting all of yours.

OP posts:
SheldonesqueIsUnwell · 04/03/2021 20:31

3 2 1 you’re back in the room.

lifeturnsonadime · 04/03/2021 20:32

it's absolutely clear to me that we are supposed to recognise undefined words, newspeak if you like, and if we don't we are bigoted, misgendering or attacking the OP. When we say we don't understand these words we are not told what they mean we are told we just have to accept them as true.

Whist at the same time accept words that we don't ascribe are applied to us.

And we are apparently not the oppressed class but the oppressors.

It starts to come across as compelled speech.

Delphinium20 · 04/03/2021 20:34

You aren't medically diagnosed a gender though which is why it is changeable.

Exactly. Gender can not be medically diagnosed. Would you agree it's possibly another way to describe personality with respect to sex stereotypes?

Perhaps it's similar to how kids explore the reality of their sex vis a vis social expectations. For example, my DD loves to build things and wanted her own toolkit to match her dad's. Her friend wanted one too but insisted it should be pink because she was a girl and they argued a bit about this (being 8 at the time). I personally think this is an example of social/media stereotypes that can influence children and maybe the concept of gender works here as something to describe this tension.

Considering this concept of gender, I'm curious of the OP would think the concept of "cis" belongs somewhere in this example. The 8-year-old neighbor girl connected being a girl with choosing a pink toy. Is that somehow her asserting she was "cis"?

As to the OP's original question I find the term "cis" as unnecessary. OP says it means "not trans." However, there are a lot of things I'm not. I'm not Russian, I'm not diabetic, I'm not a short, I'm not elderly. We don't have separate words for these things to show we're "not that". If we did, the list becomes endless, doesn't it?

Thelnebriati · 04/03/2021 20:34

[quote ASugar]service-manual.nhs.uk/content/inclusive-language[/quote]
'Cis' and 'cisgender' are not used anywhere in this guide.

Ninkanink · 04/03/2021 20:35

OP. I definitely agree with everything you’ve said.

As a long-standing member of this board, I totally agree with all your points. Thank you for educating us.

**please understand that not all words I use might make sense to you. They may or may not mean the things you think they mean. However, I 100% know what I mean, and that is all that matters. Again, thank you.

LastRoloIsMine · 04/03/2021 20:38

This thread is like somebody repeatedly telling babies are brought by the stork!

NeedToKnow101 · 04/03/2021 20:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ArabellaScott · 04/03/2021 20:38

@applestrudels

"I personally don't like to think that just because I was born with a vagina means I am a woman."

But that's literally all the word woman means though. The reason you feel uneasy about it is that you have bought into traditional (harmful) gender stereotypes and internalised them to the point where you can't dissociate the word woman from the stereotypes in your mind, so when you hear "woman = adult human with a female body (usually including a vagina save for very rare exceptions)" you hear "vagina = [insert list of stereotypes]. But that's not what we're saying. We're saying the word woman simply means adult human female, the way vagina means "the muscular tube leading from the external genitals to the cervix of the uterus in women and most female mammals" (oh look, the first dictionary definition I came across also uses the word woman) so saying "I don't like to think I'm a woman just because I have a vagina" makes as much sense as saying "I don't like to think of myself as having a vagina, just because I have a muscular tube leading from my external genitalia to my uterus". Being a woman doesn't mean you have to be or act a certain way, apart from being being female.

"Additionally those who don't have a gender identity, then that would mean you wouldn't use women and men as they're gender terms (according to medical professionals)."

What? This just isn't true. When you are walking down the street and see a man coming towards you, do you need to know how he feels about his gender before you register him as a man? No. You do an instantaneous, automatic and instinctive recce of his external visible secondary sex characteristics, which takes less than a second, and identify him as an adult human male.

In sentences such as "in 19th century England, the majority of workers in textile factories were women"; "In Ancient Greece women had few rights"; had anyone asked them about their gender identity? Of course they hadn't. This is just nonsense.

I used to be OK with the term cis, and think "what's the big deal", but now I reject it. Because the fact is, the very vast majority of people do not have a "gender identity". They just know they have a male or female body, and everyone they have every met has treated them accordingly (for good, bad and neutral) therefore they know they are a man or a woman. I am a woman, but I can honestly say I have no idea what it feels like to be a woman, outside of the experience of having a female body and being treated in a certain way by everyone I have ever met because they can see I have a female body. When I am alone at home I don't go round doing the laundry thinking about how much of a woman I feel.

Indeed, in order to know what "woman" feels like, I would need to know how other women feel about being women AND how men feel about being men for comparison (otherwise how do we know the feelings we assume are "womanly" aren't common to all humans?). But no one can know how anyone else feels.

Therefore, the males who claim that they DO know what "woman" feels like are mansplaining harder than any man has every mansplained. They are claiming to know more about what being a woman feels like than any women!

great post, apple.
Erkrie · 04/03/2021 20:40

I see op is inviting a pile on from twitter. That ok with you @MNHQ?

What's wrong with 'Cisgender'
SheldonesqueIsUnwell · 04/03/2021 20:40

Fishing for haddock with Fanny Cradock

SilverBirchWithout · 04/03/2021 20:40

@Deadringer

I reckon this thread will turn a lot of lurkers to the gender critical side, it's so ludicrous!
This and yesterday’s thread encouraged me to finally start posting, I’ve been lurking for a couple of years now. I genuinely believe it’s now time for us quieter women to stand up and say No More!
SheldonesqueIsUnwell · 04/03/2021 20:41

Sorry. Wrong thread.

TheBuffster · 04/03/2021 20:41

I didn't know this. Mumsnet is awesome.
* 'Let toys be toys' grew out of a thread by MN feminists who object to children's full potential being stifled by gender stereotypes.*

Other interesting facts include the 8 Vs 13 murder statistics.

Not quite sure where to file away men can be women, sisters are brothers and people can have no mother. Maybe fiction?

minchinfin · 04/03/2021 20:42

@ASugar I have repeatedly asked you to stop calling me this and I have repeatedly told you that I find it offensive and triggering, as a biological woman, and why. As have many other biological women. Why are you continuing to do it? How would you feeling I kept misgendering you? Whydo you think it is it ok for you to do that?

prrtnyao · 04/03/2021 20:42

@Erkrie

I see op is inviting a pile on from twitter. That ok with you *@MNHQ*?

Mumsnet has royally fucked this one. And instead of doing anything about it they are deleting posts and banning long-time members.

Erkrie · 04/03/2021 20:42

Sorry. Wrong thread

It seemed to work anyway

ArabellaScott · 04/03/2021 20:42

@Erkrie

I see op is inviting a pile on from twitter. That ok with you *@MNHQ*?
That's really shitty behaviour. I am happy to try and discuss issues, but not if the OP is going to try and post just to point score like this.
prrtnyao · 04/03/2021 20:42

@SheldonesqueIsUnwell

Fishing for haddock with Fanny Cradock

🤣🤣🤣

SheldonesqueIsUnwell · 04/03/2021 20:43

Genuinely wrong thread Blush

LastRoloIsMine · 04/03/2021 20:44

The OP woke up this morning and decided they were "gonna own mumsnet".

All they have done is confirm what I already knew. Mumsnet in particular this board is full of bright articulate strong WOMEN!
Your will power patience and kindness make me feel powerful. Like I can take on the world and its shit.

MedusasBadHairDay · 04/03/2021 20:44

I'm almost impressed with the OP (and friends) ability to just ignore and avoid inconvenient questions or facts. Almost.

ArabellaScott · 04/03/2021 20:44

@SheldonesqueIsUnwell

Genuinely wrong thread Blush
I liked it!
CharlieParley · 04/03/2021 20:45

I'm really trying to understand where you are coming from ASugar. Because I believe that only if we understand each other can we engage productively. You say a woman is

Someone who uses she/her or she/they pronounce and identifies with being female or a woman.

Is the pronoun condition necessary or conditional? If it is necessary, are there in your view no women in China then? Or in any of the (roughly) two thirds of the female population on this planet who speak languages that do not use sexed pronouns?

If it is conditional on the existence of pronouns in the language used by the person identifying as a woman, we can dispense with it as part of the definition. Because I hope you would agree that women exist everywhere on this planet, and not just in populations speaking gendered languages.

So, then there is the problem that you are mixing two things in identifies with being female or being a woman. By your previous comments it's clear that you define female as denoting sex and woman as denoting sex stereotypes ("gender"). You state unequivocally that one cannot identify as another race, age, height or disabled, because those are material fact. Facts that one can prove by various means or tests. So applying your logic consistently, one cannot be a woman based on merely identifying with being female, as this refers to the sex class - a material fact that can be ascertained by various tests and you have already rejected that one can identify as something that is a material fact when one does not possess/ that material fact. You have also stated unequivocally that one cannot change sex. So I suggest leaving out that part of your definition because it is contradictory on your own terms.

Which leaves being a woman based on identifying with the sex stereotypes associated with women.

In order to identify as something, that something must have a meaning. Saying I am a snargel because I identify with the stereotypes associated with snargels will always leave your audience at a loss as to what you identify as if you don't explain what a snargel is. As gender has as its referent sex, and to avoid a circular definition, I shall replace one instance of woman. So would you agree that your definition of woman as parsed by me, is indeed:

A woman is everyone who identifies with the stereotypes associated with the female sex.

(Your definition of woman is that this denotes gender which denotes the sex stereotypes and sex role stereotypes associated with one or the other sex. For clarity, and because gender and sex are often used interchangeably even when the context is different, I am using the definition of gender here that fits your stated meaning.)

If that is your definition, then we at least have a stable basis for further discussion around women's rights, what they are based on, who needs access to them and how this can or should be reflected in statutory writing (how laws are written).

Erkrie · 04/03/2021 20:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Strikemepink · 04/03/2021 20:46

Who has been banned?